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double blades in a canoe
- Thread starter Odyssey
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I like the attitude of people around here in that they are pretty traditional but not blind to advances in equipment and technique. Double blades seem really handy when going solo in the wind. There is something about the feel of the single paddle that I really like and always use one for fast water. Maybe part of the appeal of the cheap plastic kayaks for newbies is that the double blade actually takes less skill.
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I use the 280’s in my big-boy, big-hauler battleships - the soloized Penobscot or Explorer are both about 34” wide at the outwale where I begin a paddle stroke. The Crone backwards from the bow seat is closer to 35”.
I also use a more inefficient low-angle stroke, which necessitates a longer stick. Even with a low angle stroke and drip rings I still have minor waterage inside the inwale when paddling offset (30 degrees) or going to a higher angle stroke for more power.
Using just the front spray cover solves the drip issue nicely.
To continue the ac/dc discussion I had a lovely six or eight mile paddle at Pictured Rocks MI this am with my lovely single blade in the Monarch
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Ppine, if I could go back to more frequently using a single blade I would. There are things you can’t do, or can’t do without undue awkwardness, using a double blade.
A single blade does take less skill if simply stroking left-right-left, but it need not be completly clueless. You can draw, pry, brace, rudder, and to some degree correct with a double blade. On big open water I sometimes off-set my hands on the shaft so that I have a bit more stick out to one side for big sweeping turns or to counter a beam reach.
There is a local paddler, and older guy who paddles kneeling in short WW open canoes on class III and IV, who uses only a double blade (and a high angle stroke). He is marvelous to watch, if hard to keep up with, and his trips usually involve long daily mileage.
I couldn’t keep up with him in his ancient Rouge when I was double blading a MR Independence on a flatwater trip.
There are some things that are very awkward to me with a double like side slips and bow jams underway and bow rudders That unused thing hanging over my head in those cases is a liability IMO
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I would never paddle with my double if physical limitations didn't force it sometimes, but when I do I really like my 250cm Bending Branches Navigator in my solos. I usually paddle kneeling. One thing I like about it besides it's feel, is that I noticed on a paddle with a lot of other types of doubles it was noticeably the quietest. Not nearly as quiet as a single though.
Turtle
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I will admit that the decked canoes, especially the Monarch, are the only boats in which I can still comfortably stroke a single blade (bent shaft, rudder down, no paddle stroke correction).
BTW – Pictured Rocks stands as one of my top tripping memories, staying up into the wee hours to watch a helluva northern lights show over Superior.
BTW II – I’ve been stuck hanging close to home for several months, so PHHBBTTTT!
Holmes, the Camano in lengths above 240 (250?) is a special order. But worth it. Mine once belonged to a dear and departed friend who had Werner pro-deals, so it also has sentimental value.
Once upon a time Werner offered 30cm (and maybe shorter) extensions, but they needed to be ordered with the paddle to assure that they would fit the factory-matched ferrule ends. The better/tighter ferrules are all factory matched, but having an extension to turn a (non-custom order) 240 into a 270 was a great idea. It might be worth asking is they will still make custom extensions with a paddle order.
I like a seamless ferrule, without a raised ferrule edge to catch my hand or scrape in storage. I really like Werner’s adjustable off-set; it makes for a very stiff ferrule connection with a single protruding button (and allowed me to discover that my preferred offset is 30 degrees right hand control).
Adjustable off-set paddles with protruding lock-levers just don’t cut it for me; I’d prefer the shaft to be as smooth as possible along its length.
HaHa.
A couple of years ago I was fighting a headwind up Lows lake the last week of October, loaded to the gunnels with all sorts of canvas, when the nice lady Ranger (Dawn) paddled up in a Kayak. We talked for a moment, then she told me the next time I come to Lows I better bring a double blade....I answered politely with a smile that I would stay home before I used a double blade, and lifted my old beavertail for her to get a good look at.
Not what she wanted to hear I guess, cause she then asked me where I was from,
"Connecticut" I said,
"Don't leave any garbage in the firepit", was her reply,
Ouch.
.....but she also added that she lived nearby and if I needed any help, just stop in which was nice.
Dawn is really a nice person, dedicated to her job patrolling Lows Lake and educating the public. She is employed as an Assistant NYSDEC Ranger. The increasing explosion of visitors to Lows in recent years keeps her overly busy, and sometimes frustrated at general carelessness, I am sure. You can always tell it is her from a long distance away, with her green kayak and bright yellow paddle blades. I always enjoy chatting with her as we float along for a time. Her husband, Greg, is the BSA ranger/maintenance caretaker at the nearby scout camp. They live practically on the flow, up a nearly hidden trail where she stashes her kayak behind a big pine tree near the waters edge.
I've been going to Lows once or twice a year. I annually spend several days on the water and woods environs teaching a guides' training program, now for more than 25 years. At one time I carried a double blade paddle in my canoe there and elsewhere on larger lakes for when the wind was bad. But as I learned better single blade skills I dumped the double as excess baggage. The double just doesn't seem natural to me. Granted the double can be useful, especially for better stability when going solo in big rollers - a small solo canoe tends to want to wander randomly when perched on the crest of a big wave and it can be a fight to keep gong straight. Useful, but not necessary.
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Mike,
I agree that with some practice the double blades become handier and more capable. Most canoeists probably have 10 x more experience with a single blade.
Your photograph above says a lot about your experience level. It looks conspicuously like the Green R. I love the cover with the single blade and the handy spot for all of your mounted gear. This forum has caused me it to investigate solo boats further. I have paddled tandem boats solo many times, but it looks like you guys are on to something.
I agree that with some practice the double blades become handier and more capable. Most canoeists probably have 10 x more experience with a single blade.
Your photograph above says a lot about your experience level. It looks conspicuously like the Green R. I love the cover with the single blade and the handy spot for all of your mounted gear. This forum has caused me it to investigate solo boats further. I have paddled tandem boats solo many times, but it looks like you guys are on to something.
I've never understood the reasoning that a double blade would be better in the wind. Just the opposite as far as I'm concerned.
With a double you've got that danged second blade waving above your head and catching the wind, making each stroke feel doubly difficult in a headwind. If the wind is from the side at all (and isn't it always?) you're going to need some sort of correction and other than a sweep I've never liked doing correction strokes with a double blade. Having to take multiple strokes on the same side feels very awkward. Perhaps I just never got to be proficient with one.
I've done a couple long distance races (75 miles) in a kayak with a double blade and strong headwinds (20-35mph). I had a rudder so steering wasn't an issue but having that top blade up in the wind was brutal. It was a real relief to switch to a single blade after 30 miles.
Alan
With a double you've got that danged second blade waving above your head and catching the wind, making each stroke feel doubly difficult in a headwind. If the wind is from the side at all (and isn't it always?) you're going to need some sort of correction and other than a sweep I've never liked doing correction strokes with a double blade. Having to take multiple strokes on the same side feels very awkward. Perhaps I just never got to be proficient with one.
I've done a couple long distance races (75 miles) in a kayak with a double blade and strong headwinds (20-35mph). I had a rudder so steering wasn't an issue but having that top blade up in the wind was brutal. It was a real relief to switch to a single blade after 30 miles.
Alan
I agree. Holding a double blade continuously in front of your body is tiresome. Even if it's carbon, it's still going to be at least 22 ounces and probably more. One can get a single blade ZRE at 7 ounces. And with a partial in-water return on a correction stroke buoying the paddle, the single blade is virtually weightless for most of the stroke.
I have three sea kayaks and about seven double blades, everything from wooden Klepper paddles to Swedish carbon racing paddles to heavy Carlisle ABS paddles. I paddled kayaks exclusively from 1998-2004. I finally realized I simply don't like decked, cockpitted hulls or double paddle technique--physically, psychologically or aesthetically. So I bought an outrigger canoe to single blade in big water, wind and wave conditions.
But just the point about paddle weight alone causes me puzzlement as to why anyone with reasonable single blade wind and wave skills would want to heft a double blade that's at least twice as heavy, and maybe four times as heavy, as a single blade.
For me, there is a speed gain with a double blade over single-sided correction stroking, which I much prefer to switching, but that small advantage is totally outweighed, both figuratively and literally, by all the other paddling considerations that are important to me.
Two words Ocean paddling One more Clapotis
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Alan, it may be that my single blade skills have become rusty or I’ve become weaker as I age, but I am certain that I have made progress into headwinds with a double blade that would have blown me backwards with a single. That’s in a solo canoe; tandem with bow and stern using singles is a different story (although even then, double blade in the bow into the wind helps).
Into the wind or in a side wind I use the same offset – 30 degrees. The difference between pushing the raised blade flat into the wind vs some offset is remarkably noticeable and if I make a turn into the wind I am quickly reminded to angle the blades.
Multiple strokes on one side with a double blade does feel stupidly awkward. If I need correction or more power on one side to balance a ferry angle in side winds (or up-stream against current or tide) I off-set my hands on the shaft a bit, so I have a little more sweep on one side.
That off-set hands shift is helpful at other times as well. When I need to make a miles-long curve on open water I’ll slid my hands over a touch on the shaft to equalize the pull and rhythm on either side.
Sometimes that’s a mental trick; I paddled a good way up into the Grand Canyon from Pierce Ferry at the top of Lake Mead 25 years ago, and heading up-stream through the Grand Wash cliffs seemed endless because of the unaccustomed scale of landscape. The solution to easing my dispiriting thoughts that “dang, those cliffs aren’t getting any closer” was to off-set the double blade a bit and not look up to judge my progress too often.
BTW – If Lake Mead ever refills enough to backwater the bottom of the Colorado (doubtful in my lifetime) that is an excellent trip, and you can legally paddle as far upstream as Separation rapids.
One word about those conditions: kayak.
To paddle in rough open ocean or clapotis the important thing is to have the right hull. The right hull is one designed to sit on or near the bottom--a decked kayak or undecked kayak such as a surf ski. These sit-on-or-near-the-bottom hulls are appropriately paddled with double blades. One can paddle a SOB hull with a single blade but, to me, it's mechanically awkward and unappealing.
Pack canoes are not designed for open ocean, but as sit-on-or-near-the-bottom hulls, they too are best paddled with double paddles.
There are hulls designed for single blades that can handle rough ocean: sit-near-the-bottom decked canoes with rudders, and outrigger canoes. If one is going to paddle in rough ocean or ocean-like conditions, the best thing to do, in my opinion, is to choose an appropriate hull, not to rely on a double paddle in an inappropriate hull.
I thought the topic was day paddling or tripping in a traditional CanAm open canoe hull with a double blade. It makes no sense to me to day paddle a traditional canoe with a double blade. If that's how one wants to paddle for fun or exercise, I suggest getting a better hull for that technique--namely, a fast and sporty decked or undecked kayak. If one needs the space of a CanAm open canoe for tripping loads, I can understand using double blades if one does not confidently have "reasonable single blade wind and wave skills", which was my stated premise.
The main reason I did not have solo confidence in flat water wind and waves 30 years ago--even though I was a solid class 3 whitewater paddler--was that I was paddling the wrong hull with the wrong flatwater correction technique. I was trying to horse a heavy tandem canoe with a novice (and evil) J stroke. That was tiring, stressful on the wrists, forearms and shoulder, and flat-out unpleasant after a few miles.
Once I got into a light and fast solo canoe and learned the traveling C stroke, the pitch stroke and the Canadian stroke, all the stress and unpleasantness transformed magically into proprioceptive and aesthetic bliss. I was then able to combine my whitewater wave and J lean lower body skills to confidently attack flatwater waves and wind with a single blade. To finish of the skill package, I had to learn reasonable Minnesota switch technique and become reasonably ambidextrous with the single blade on both sides of the canoe.
You have to become competent, comfortable and confident on your off-side in wind and waves. That takes practice--preferably when you are young. That's why I advise all beginning open canoeists--those who really want to learn the rapidly dying art of the single blade--never to touch a double blade. It's like crack cocaine. First: Learn how to completely control an open canoe with a single blade in all water and wind conditions, using all available single blade techniques. That will take a few years of practice, but the rewards are rich. Then: You can play with a double blade if you like, without feeling that you have to.
To those who are experienced or whose paddling habits are fixed, I'm not addressing you.
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Never tried crack. Thanks, but no thanks.
Glenn, I largely agree, and admit that I miss the more refined feel of using a single blade, especially during the 5% of the time that I have one in hand. Well, the 5% of the 5% of the time before my wrist begins to nag. If I could single blade effectively without discomfort, especially for some duration, I would do so and only turn to the double for headwinds or against the tide or current.
Agreed, wagging that unused blade overhead is a liability, especially in thickly wooded areas or in some winds.
A bow rudder isn’t bad with some lean, although less effective with long un-rockered hulls (knee bumpers/thigh braces help). Same with a jam; a 17’ hull with little rocker isn’t going to stop and spin like a free-style boat.
A side slip with a long double blade looks spastic and feels worse, and my sculling stroke with a double is weaker and less effective than with a single.
That is a big reason why I have our canoes and decked boats outfitted so that I can quickly and easily stow the double and pick up the single. Sometime a single blade is far more effective.
Perhaps I should get a patch like the outlaw bikers – 5%’er
I used to live on Camano Island north of Seattle where the name comes from for the paddle mentioned above. I built a sea kayak out of a stitch and glue kit from Pygmy and really tried to like kayaks. They are okay for salt water. We used to do some trips in the San Juan Islands. After awhile I tired of the squeezy cockpit and the difficulty in storing gear in a kayak and sold the boat. The unintended consequence of a sea kayak trip of many days is that the double blade started to feel pretty natural after 50 years of paddling a single blade. I never thought I would defend the use of a kayak paddle, but I guess I just did.
In the wind fewer corrections strokes are required. It is paddle and switch every stroke. There is no sense in arguing with canoeists about this subject. There are probably some old school canoeists that stay on the same side their whole paddling careers. There is one really important concept when it comes to the outdoors- There are many right ways to do things.
In the wind fewer corrections strokes are required. It is paddle and switch every stroke. There is no sense in arguing with canoeists about this subject. There are probably some old school canoeists that stay on the same side their whole paddling careers. There is one really important concept when it comes to the outdoors- There are many right ways to do things.
Kayak is not a necessity always on the ocean. Some pack canoes have done remarkably well and of course sea canoes were designed for the ocean I maintain that the double has advantages for the sitting in or near the bottom paddler in clap iris or whirlpool come and go conditions. Kneeling as in whitewater allows a fast cross brace with a single but sitting it's much harder to use your body and rotate as far for an effective brace I sit in the Monarch and RapidFire and will sometimes use the double exclusively in both We're just about done with our Lake Superior Circle and paddle tour Off to play with the Monarch in Cobscook Bay. Land of Old Sow!
Maybe you're right but that was never my experience. I was a much less proficient paddler (still have a long ways to go) when I was double blading in a kayak though. With the wind coming from the side and blowing the stern I find it much easier with a single blade since I can just stay on one side and stroke away to counteract the force of the wind. I prefer hit and switch paddling so maybe it's 20 strokes on one side, 5 on the other, and then back for another 20, etc... If I want to add a slight J, in water recovery, or C stroke to aid in keeping direction I can. If the stern is getting pushed too much a slight draw incorporated at the end of the forward stroke will pull it back around.
With a double blade if I'm simply alternating strokes the wind soon has me blown off course. So then it's either multiple strokes per side or somehow alter my stroke so that it's different on one side than the other, such as shifting hand positions like Mike mentioned above or incorporating a sweep with every stroke on one side. It always felt awkward to me.
I think it probably depends a lot on the boat as well. I'm normally in my Bell Magic or something else that gets good speed, tracks well and is relatively unaffected by the wind. I can just put the hammer down with the single blade and switch sides when needed. Not so if I'm paddling my Kite (Osprey). While I can move forward a little and keeping my stroke very short get good speed with 5-7 strokes per side before switching that probably wouldn't work so well in the wind as the stern would get blown around too much. I might find the kayak paddle more effective in the wind with that hull.
Alan
