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double blades in a canoe

I am certain that I have made progress into headwinds with a double blade that would have blown me backwards with a single.

Again, I have no interest in debating or arguing with experienced paddlers who have their own paddling preferences and experiences.

However, for those who are closer to the beginning stages of the sport and who don't have experience with various paddles in various conditions, I will say that my experience in wind is apparently not quite the same as Mike's. Or at least I have to relate a more complex experience in wind.

If using one of my kayak double paddles, none of which is longer than 212 cm, so I can get a relatively high angle stroke, I could double blade into the wind faster than I can single-side correction stroke into the wind. I've said that.

However, I think my speed would about the same if I switch paddled with a bent shaft into the wind. In the world of competent switch paddlers, I consider myself below average. Were I an above average switch paddler, I believe I could go into wind faster that way than I can with a short double blade using a high angle stroke.

I'm almost certain I can paddle faster into the wind by (my below average) switch paddling than I could with a big honker double blade (240-280 cm) used with a low angle stroke. First, if you ballast your canoe bow heavy when going into the wind, it will naturally stick in that direction. Therefore, you can take a lot of single blade canoe strokes on each side before switching. Second, I have no doubt that each forward stroke with a bent shaft paddle has more forward vector force than a forward stroke with a big honker double paddle in the low angle position. The forward stroke with a bent shaft is close to the keel, tight and efficient, producing very little sideways vector force. On the other hand, the forward stroke with a long double blade has a much bigger sweep stroke effect and hence relatively less forward vector force. Going into the wind, for my skill level, a switching bent shaft is more efficient, more powerful and less tiring than using a long double blade.

If I am going at an angle into the wind--say, 30 to 45 degrees--I'm probably taking 70%-90% of my strokes on the downwind side. I can do that much more easily and powerfully with single blade than a double. The single paddle is lighter and I don't have that second blade waving way up in the air on every stroke. In this wind situation, I'm also probably using my 57" ZRE straight paddle rather than my 48.5" ZRE bent, because I want the extra leverage and sweep component that a straight single blade can give me. As I said in my previous post, to paddle on the downwind side one must be comfortable and practiced paddling with a single blade on the off-side, because the downwind side will be the off-side 50% of the time. I think that inexperience with off-side paddling in wind/waves is a primary reason why people often lose single blade confidence and then reach for a double blade.

I won't talk about the situation where wind is at my back, because ever since I bought a sail a couple of years ago that's never happened.

Finally, I should say that my preference is to avoid any wind/wave situation that would require Conan levels of effort via switch paddling or double blading. If the wind and waves are at that level when I arrive at the put-in, I'll take my ruddered outrigger off the roof instead of my CanAm open hull. If I don't have my outrigger with me, I'll scrap the trip, log onto the internet and pontificate about canoeing rather than doing it. If I'm in the middle of a trip and big wind/waves come up, I'm going to surrender rather than fight. I'm never far from shore, so I'll simply go to ground, smoke a Cuban and sip Uncle Lee's decaffeinated tea until it all blows over. If that takes a day or two, so what! I'm unemployed.
 
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This forum is a delight to read. It is very interesting to read the last page or so. I have never owned a solo canoe. When I paddle a large tandem boat with little ballast, there is a lot of boat above the waterline, especially in the case of the OT Guide 18. It has the full ends that were typical a long time ago. I train my dogs to move around in the boat and stay where I tell them to sit for trim. Into the wind I kneel amidships. If it is blowing I kneel in front of the center thwart. Under those conditions a double paddle is an advantage without any doubt. It makes it obvious that a solo boat is worth owning especially for windy conditions which are common on the local mountain lakes.
 
It's all good but to rouse a bit of rabble I wonder How can you be a canoeist if you haven't mastered the single blade? Hey we have a tradition to protect ! OTOH the double is easy to learn and the single not as easy BUT. Once you get the basics of the single the countless ways you can use it are easier to master You can get from a to b with a double and spend years trying to master it. I'm still working on that forward stroke thing
 
This forum is a delight to read. It is very interesting to read the last page or so. I have never owned a solo canoe. When I paddle a large tandem boat with little ballast, there is a lot of boat above the waterline, especially in the case of the OT Guide 18. It has the full ends that were typical a long time ago. I train my dogs to move around in the boat and stay where I tell them to sit for trim. Into the wind I kneel amidships. If it is blowing I kneel in front of the center thwart. Under those conditions a double paddle is an advantage without any doubt. It makes it obvious that a solo boat is worth owning especially for windy conditions which are common on the local mountain lakes.

I got a Bell Northstar this summer, which many people use as a solo. Not having a tandem partner but wanting to try out my new boat I've taken it out solo a couple times with ballast in the front and me on the factory kneeling thwart. Both times there has been a stiff, but not hard, breeze blowing. What a pain in the arse! Completely different than paddling my solos and much more affected by the wind. Not only that but it's a lot harder to control it since I'm kneeling rear of center and can't effectively move the bow. It's fantastic as a tandem though.

Alan
 
Yellowcanoe,
Paddling is a bunch of simple skills that take a lifetime to perfect. I got serious about paddling in 1961 after some Boy Scout overnight trips in a canoe. I took a class at church camp from one of those old hard-nosed guys. Out of 14 students I was the only one he gave a passing grade to. Paddling solo in the wind with a single blade was difficult. Hopefully my skills have improved a little in the intervening 53 years. I am a great believer in the single blade and gave up a hand built kyak. I am just making the point that with big clumsy tandem boats in the wind, a double blade has some advantages.
 
Anyone yoomp the yoke and paddle Canadian Style from in front of the yoke in the wind? Trims the bow down.

Paddling might be a bunch of simple skills but you can spend hours tweaking them to slices and various paddle angles for static strokes that lead to turns or moving the whole boat .

The goal is to move the boat in any direction .. backward forwards to the side staying pointed in one direction or turning any direction towards or away from your paddling side.

I started paddling in 63, the one canoe trip a year, started kayaking everyday in 89 and learned solo canoeing in 96 and started doing that everyday in lieu of kayaking. Then FreeStyle came along along with two hours practice each day (its handy to have a pond at your house).

So I too am from many boxes.

I have not yet mastered the best way to handle a tandem solo..poling.
 
I got a Bell Northstar this summer, which many people use as a solo. Not having a tandem partner but wanting to try out my new boat I've taken it out solo a couple times with ballast in the front and me on the factory kneeling thwart. Both times there has been a stiff, but not hard, breeze blowing. What a pain in the arse! Completely different than paddling my solos and much more affected by the wind. Not only that but it's a lot harder to control it since I'm kneeling rear of center and can't effectively move the bow. It's fantastic as a tandem though.

The size and shape of the canoe makes a world of difference when paddling in the wind. A sleek hull with a lower sheerline will of course present less sail for the paddler to manage. Since my preference for open tripping canoes tends towards bigger hulls (soloized Penobscot or Explorer) I accept that penalty and deal with it as best I can.

Not just length and depth, but width. Glenn mentioned the efficiency of sit and switch.

However, I think my speed would about the same if I switch paddled with a bent shaft into the wind. In the world of competent switch paddlers, I consider myself below average. Were I an above average switch paddler, I believe I could go into wind faster that way than I can with a short double blade using a high angle stroke.

No question that will be more efficient than paddling on one side with the needed correction. But sit and switch in a 35” wide canoe presents an added degree of difficulty unless the paddler is built like Stretch Armstrong.
 
I would never paddle with my double if physical limitations didn't force it sometimes, but when I do I really like my 250cm Bending Branches Navigator in my solos. I usually paddle kneeling. One thing I like about it besides it's feel, is that I noticed on a paddle with a lot of other types of doubles it was noticeably the quietest. Not nearly as quiet as a single though.

Turtle, if you ever have the chance, try the Shaw and Tenney Hereshoff double. It is by far the quietest double blade I’ve ever used, even with a low angle stroke.

http://www.shawandtenney.com/engrava...e-canoe-paddle

The blades have a sound (an almost imperceptible sizzle) and feel unlike any double I have used. The throat has a unique tapered transition edge between blade and shaft that sheds water sooner and more effectively than a drip ring or cup.

Downsides: The blades are thin, and somewhat frail; not for rocky shallows or pushing off, and the ferrule is an antique design, although surprisingly effective for something so simple. The biggest downside for me was the balance; oddly the Hereshoff felt too light in the blades. That was using a long 280cm, so there was a lot of thick wood shaft in between the thin blades.

That said I have a paddling friend who fell in love with the feel and design of the Hereshoff the first time he touched one and now has several. I should try one of his in something shorter than 280.

Edit: I looked at that old review and the Shaw and Tenney Hereshoff was actually a 290cm. dang, that was a lot of wood.
 
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I use a lot of Sawyer paddles. The factory is right behind my brother's house in Talent, OR. We usually buy factory seconds. Well made paddles with some aesthetic defect. I have some single blades made for the outrigger canoe guys in Hawaii, that are light and fancy looking with a lot of red cedar.
 
I use a lot of Sawyer paddles. The factory is right behind my brother's house in Talent, OR. We usually buy factory seconds. Well made paddles with some aesthetic defect. I have some single blades made for the outrigger canoe guys in Hawaii, that are light and fancy looking with a lot of red cedar.
I have a red cedar paddle from Ray Arcand out of the PNW. It's very unique with an arrow shape. Really light but really dentable
 
But sit and switch in a 35” wide canoe presents an added degree of difficulty unless the paddler is built like Stretch Armstrong.

Good point.

I should clarify that all my references in this thread to my own solo experiences in wind, and single vs. double blades, are in the context of dedicated solo canoes, no greater than 28" beam at rails, and from a centralized solo seat.

In a wide tandem canoe paddled from a centralized seat, it is more difficult to take a proper single-side correction stroke--unless you radically heel the boat in so-called Canadian style--than from a narrow solo canoe, and it is also more difficult to take powerful switching strokes.

Furthermore, in a wide tandem paddled backwards from the bow seat, the paddler is too far aft to take effective bow and cross-bow strokes, and even forward strokes, in front of the pivot point. Plus, every forward stroke has more of a turning moment from an aft seat than a central seat. In a frontal or quartering wind, an aft-seated paddler will have a much worse time controlling the canoe than a centrally seated paddler for three reasons: the unavailability of the most effective bow strokes; the diminished forward vector force of forward strokes (and increased turning moment); and the stern weighting trim of the paddler's body.

Using a tandem canoe as a solo for wilderness tripping offers very real advantages over smaller and narrower solo canoes from many perspectives. The technical paddling advantages of the narrow solo canoe with centralized seat are probably irrelevant much of the time, and are probably outweighed by other factors for many trippers. However, there are clear advantages in the wind . . . at least for me.

That all said about boat width, I'll now make a sort of contradictory observation. Some of the solo paddlers I've seen resort to double blades in wind and waves do so because they are in solo boats that are too narrow and tippy. Initial hull stability is an underrated trait in some paddling circles. Paddlers who are nervous about using a single blade on the off-side in wind and waves not only may be inexperienced in that art, they may be in too narrow a hull to give them sufficient confidence to practice that art. There is a need for more quality solo canoes in the 29"-32" beam at rails size range.
 
Paddlers who are nervous about using a single blade on the off-side in wind and waves not only may be inexperienced in that art, they may be in too narrow a hull to give them sufficient confidence to practice that art. There is a need for more quality solo canoes in the 29"-32" beam at rails size range.

True. Took me a while to get comfortable using my off-side in a solo boat. I can now and it doesn't bother me even in wind and waves.

I did however paddle your boat (SRT) the other day and I had trouble using my offside. Not that the boat was tippy or too narrow, it just felt foreign and my inner ear didn't trust it. To my on-side I was leaning that boat harder than I'd ever lean a Peregrine and I felt rock solid.

Sometimes the problem is just the lump between the ears.
 
I got a 230 cm double blade with a used Prism, it is way too short to use as is. I kept getting the drip in my lap. I just added 2 feet onto it and hopefully will try it out on Lows this weekend. I found 1 1/4" and 1" anodized aluminum tubing at the hardware store and some snap buttons from Grainger. With a little tape to shim the tubes for a nice fit, it feels pretty good.
 
230 should be fine in a Prism. I don't understand all the drippage. Do you have drip rings ? Also the blade design has a lot to do with water shedding. What brand if you don't mind me asking?
 
I think paddling style and cadence has the most effect on drippage. If you're using a high angle stroke that maximizes torso rotation then the top blade will be high and as your top hand crosses your body the blade follows and the water runs right off the blade, no chance to follow the shaft and encounter a drip ring. I can imagine a lower angle stroke would be significantly drier.

Alan
 
Why does the paddling community talk in terms of centimeters for double blades but inches for single blades? This is the most important question.
 
Because just like my 7th grade science teacher told us in about 1962, "the US is in the process of changing to the metric system." I spent my whole career as a scientist having to use both systems all the time. It is a waste of energy.
 
Length matters. So does size I think. I am shorter and probably my low angle stroke is really low and I can get to the water with a shorter paddle Why are some topo maps in distance of miles and height in meters? And we probably should not discuss rods.
 
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