The best solo canoe may be a touring kayak.

[JCH_Ski]

My favorite aspect of this thread is the idea that it’s contentious . Have any of you ever been on any other forums? You guys are the best - kind and respectful at all times!

My vote, currently, is for the canoe. I have 3 kayaks (12’, 14‘-6”, and 17’-7”) and now have 3 solo canoes (15’-4” Summersong, 15’-6” NW Solo, and 17’-6” Voyager). I just enjoy the solo canoes more, for whatever reason. I plan to sell the 12’ kayak, because the Summersong fits that slot (small and maneuverable), and I enjoy it more. The 14’-6” touring kayak I will keep….for now. Time will tell. I could tour with either of those, depending on the type of water, but would hate portaging with them. The 17’-7” touring kayak I will probably keep forever, for Lake Superior. My Dad gave that to me last spring, and I haven’t used it much.

For whatever reason, I love the solo canoes more. It’s almost like I feel more free in them. Single blade, sit & switch (I knelt in the NW Solo for most of the summer, but that hurt my feet and ankles like crazy). The kayaks/double blade make me feel like I’m in one long infinite loop of repetitive motion or something. Not sure why - it’s all repetitive, but I feel more constrained in the kayak (and I don’t mean space-wise, I mean the motion).

 

[Pseudonym]

@Idiot Savant, this is a provocative premise that pokes at our proclivities and prejudices. Fun!

I tend to use my kayaks in salt water and my canoes in fresh water, but the real distinction is open water vs. sheltered paddling.

If I'm dealing with a decent fetch over open water, plus swell or chop, then I would much prefer the planted feeling of my touring kayak sitting in the water, rather than my canoe sitting on the water. The kayaks will hold my bearing far more easily and I can make comfortable crossings that would be downright sketchy in a canoe.

That said, here's my prejudice: I love canoeing more. There's an elegance to paddling with a single blade. By comparison, euro-style kayak blades seem clunky and sloppy to me. In the canoe-territory of my imagination (connected lakes and rivers), it seems grotesque to prefer "clapping" down the river with double plastic scoops. Even when I am kayaking in salt water, it's only my cedar Greenland paddle that makes it tolerable!

 

[Cruiser]

Not sure I agree with the statement "kayak seating is light years ahead of canoes" ... to make that work, you have to narrow down to the models. Most pack canoes have a kayak seating option, so seating for those at least, is on par.

The other thing that several people have mentioned is weight, if a portage is on the agenda, then carrying a kayak is both heavier and a pita to figure out some sort of yoke system and then of course all those small packs you had to break stuff down into, to pack below decks.

Those points are an issue for my regular trips, however, if my trip was more distance, all water and I could get stuff repacked, I would consider a long sea kayak ... in all honesty, I would likely jump at the chance.

The reality is that my gear has been acquired/optimised/purchased over years of tripping to meet my needs and travel style (I think most people are the same) and if a kayak fits into that scenario, you likely already have/had one. So while I wouldn't shy away from one, I don't think it fits with my tripping type.

 

[Alan Gage]

I started out paddling kayaks. They were great. I loved them. I began with an OT Loon and eventually graduated to 17' touring kayaks and a 21'x18" racing kayak.

When I wanted to take the dog along I got a kevlar solo canoe (Bell Magic) and that was the beginning of the transition. The touring kayaks were soon sold off and the racing kayak was later gone too to be replaced by racing canoes.

Sometimes I think about getting a touring kayak again for day paddles in windy conditions but if I ever do, and that's a big if, it wouldn't be until after my dog is gone.

When I began racing I soon realized that kayaks are not necessarily faster than canoes. I remember showing up to my first race in a QCC 600, which is a fast touring kayak, and pulling up to the line along some solo canoes that were a funny shape I'd never seen before. I fully expected to win that race. A couple of the canoe paddlers remarked to each other that they were in trouble because a kayak had shown up. After about 1/2 mile, as I watched them steadily pull away from me, I realized they were being sarcastic. That was a very humbling and educational experience.

After switching over to canoes it wasn't very long until, with improved technique, I was able to paddle my Bell Magic faster than I could paddle my QCC 600 kayak.

Another example of this was paddling a 75 mile race down the Missouri river into a brutal headwind. I was paddling an Epic V8 surfski (with rudder). A friend of mine was paddling a J boat (solo racing canoe). About half way through the race I wondered how poor Gareth was doing in his J boat in that beastly wind and waves. A mile later he caught up to me. A couple miles later he pulled ahead and I never saw him again.

It's much easier for someone with limited skills and experience to paddle either a canoe or kayak with a double blade but after spending considerable time working on my technique with both of them I find I greatly prefer the single blade to the double. While it does give up some top end speed to the double blade I feel it more than makes up for it by being less fatiguing over the course of a long paddle. I also find the single blade much less tiring in the wind. Being forced to take multiple strokes on the same side with a double blade is awkward and I find it very tiring to paddle into a head wind with a double blade because the wind is catching the blade that's not in the water.

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

contentious

provocative

The utility and pleasure of kayaks for certain paddling conditions and their market dominance over canoes in much of the USA is not contentious or provocative.

What has been historically somewhat contentious and provocative on this particular site is how much "airtime" we should give here, if any, to discussing kayaks.

Some members view this site as the last American bastion devoted to canoe discussion on the internet and feel strongly that it should stay purely on the topic of canoes. I'm not quite that purist or absolutist because there are some design overlaps between open canoes, decked canoes, pack canoes (which are like undecked kayaks), and large cockpit kayaks—plus there are common issues relating to paddling destinations, route planning, equipment and gear, photography, and even construction techniques.

Nevertheless, I am committed to trying to build and maintain this site as the premiere, all-around site on the internet devoted to discussing various types of canoes, canoe paddling techniques, canoe tripping, canoe building, canoe restoration and outfitting, and related canoe information. And, yes, we also have a few limited related-topic forums, and occasional semi-off-topic discussions, to maintain a year-round outlet for chewing the fat among friends.

I have no firm boundary lines I can articulate, but this particular thread has in my opinion been respectful, informative and within bounds.

 

[PaddlingPitt]

You are good, Glenn. Very good. Very fair and inclusive.

 

[stripperguy]

Once my shoulder is fully healed from a replacement joint, I’ll be back paddling my solo and maybe tandem canoes.
I’ll use a single blade.
I’ll likely not paddle a kayak again, mostly since it doesn’t fit the small water, beaver dam and deadfall strewn streams that I prefer.
I can clear a 3 ft beaver dam in my gear laden solo canoe in a matter of moments.
Big open water crossings? Not for me
There was a time when I paddled kayaks, but my tastes and body have changed dramatically since then.

But hey, to each their own!

 

[SouthernKevlar]

Canoe, Good.
Kayak, Good.
Being on water, GOOD!

 

[JCH_Ski]

The utility and pleasure of kayaks for certain paddling conditions and their market dominance over canoes in much of the USA is not contentious or provocative.

What has been historically somewhat contentious and provocative on this particular site is how much "airtime" we should give here, if any, to discussing kayaks.

Some members view this site as the last American bastion devoted to canoe discussion on the internet and feel strongly that it should stay purely on the topic of canoes. I'm not quite that purist or absolutist because there are some design overlaps between open canoes, decked canoes, pack canoes (which are like undecked kayaks), and large cockpit kayaks—plus there are common issues relating to paddling destinations, route planning, equipment and gear, photography, and even construction techniques.

Nevertheless, I am committed to trying to build and maintain this site as the premiere, all-around site on the internet devoted to discussing various types of canoes, canoe paddling techniques, canoe tripping, canoe building, canoe restoration and outfitting, and related canoe information. And, yes, we also have a few limited related-topic forums, and occasional semi-off-topic discussions, to maintain a year-round outlet for chewing the fat among friends.

I have no firm boundary lines I can articulate, but this particular thread has in my opinion been respectful, informative and within bounds.

I don’t find this discussion even slightly contentious- I was just amused at what passes for contention around here. All the rest of the internet is a cage fight in comparison! This is the kindest, most polite place around. And it makes perfect sense to mostly keep it about canoes.

Thank you for all you do!

 

[Alasgun]

You haven't seen a portage until you've seen Fitzcarraldo.

Trailer:

Full movie:

I’d never heard of this one till 3 hours a ago. Wow, a portage indeed! And so much more. Thanks!

 

[Gamma1214]

I don’t find this discussion even slightly contentious- I was just amused at what passes for contention around here. All the rest of the internet is a cage fight in comparison! This is the kindest, most polite place around. And it makes perfect sense to mostly keep it about canoes.

I am a bit more "canoe purist" than Glenn as the kayak crowd pretty much dominates the other paddling forums and I, personally, would hate to see a proliferation of kayak threads on here. You are correct, however, that this forum has been, and remains, a very polite and (reasonably) inclusive collection of paddlers.

I too once paddled yaks with double blades (forgive me Father, for I have sinned...). I might still consider a yak in the ocean or class III+ and above rapids as I don't see much difference between a yak and a play boat stuffed to the gunwales with float bags. The double blade, however, will remain in my past as I have now developed adequate single blade skills that I have no desire to go backwards.

I might even consider a touring kayak as a solo tripper if I can remove the decks, change the seat to a contoured web seat that sits off the floor and add a thwart I can tie the paddles to for portaging.

 

[yknpdlr]

I have to say I have immense respect for my Adirondack and Yukon paddling partner Eileen, normally a kayak paddler, who after paddling the YRQ with me in a C4 canoe, the next year she paddled her custom home built wood kayak to not only overall win the YRQ, as well as paddle the fastest ever female YRQ time. You may have read that she just a couiple of weeks ago completed the first ever single season human powered Northwest Passage traverse in a K2. I have tremendous respect for that young lady, whose Irish grandmother’s maiden name is Shackleton and family lore claims Sir Ernest as her ancestor so polar expedition runs in Eileen’s blood.

 

[MrPoling]

The real problem is that kayaks aren't that much better in bad conditions, especially for normal people. To make the kayak safer in open water requires a skilled paddler and proper outfitting. I can't imagine many people can roll a 17 ft kayak with 75 lbs of gear. Especially in conditions that would lead to a flip.

If you told me I had to make a 2 mi crossing to a barrier island I'd want a sea kayak. I'd also practice rolling in it, loaded. I'd look for a competent partner, and pay very careful attention to conditions. But that use case is so narrow that having a kayak would not expand my tripping options. Maybe in 10 years when no kids are traveling with me.

To me where the kayak really shines is white water. I've never seriously considered a dedicated white water solo canoe, a banana boat, because the whitewater kayak is so much better. Most of my whitewater paddling is done on small easy rivers and I take the canoe because I just like it better. But for big wide rivers were rescue is difficult or class 4 I take the kayak.

 

[TrailBlaser]

Now hold on guys (and any gals).
I didn't say touring kayaks are better.
I didn't say you should buy a touring kayak instead of a canoe.
What I said was you should, at least, consider them next time you are shopping for a solo boat.
I'm not selling my Northwind solo or my Echo. But now I have two touring kayaks in my quiver too.
And a crossover kayak for more serious whitewater than I'd ever attempt in a canoe.
I'm just starting a conversation. That's all.

What are the downsides of touring kayaks?
The biggest ones, for me, are you can't take a cooler or river toilette. Don't want the two burner stove.
On multiday trips on rivers where you normally carry all your water, room can be a problem.
Getting in and out can be a pain, especially as you get older. I'm almost 70.
Fear of entrapment is an issue for some, including me. I buy touring kayaks with large cockpit openings.
Portaging is an issue.

What are the pros?
Seating is lightyears more comfortable. My Castines are like sitting in an easy chair at home.
Less affected by wind. What made me really think about touring kayaks was a trip down the Upper Missouri with a strong headwind.
With a spray skirt, no issue with water coming in. That Upper Missouri trip would have been dryer.
If you use a double bladed paddle, less dripping on your legs, even without a skirt.
No need to strap in gear as it's under a deck.
Depending on the boats, most likely faster. Many years ago, when I was still young and strong, I was paddling down Stillwater Canyon, in my Wenonah Encounter, when I got passed by a couple seakayaks. I switched to my double bladed paddle and picked up the pace to see if I could keep up. I couldn't. I paddled Lake Powell in both very fast canoes and seakayaks and I could cover more ground in the seakayak.
Every time I buy a canoe I have to spend hours, and quite a bit of money, getting it ready for tripping. You buy a touring kayak and it's ready to go right out of the box.
I belong to a big canoe club. Yes, canoe club. Most of the solo paddlers are now in touring kayaks. A big change from 20 years ago. Partly a reflection of advances in touring kayaks. Today's touring kayaks are pretty nice.

Am I always going to use a touring kayak instead of a canoe?
No, but I like having that option. For some trips the canoe will be more suitable. For some trips the seakayak will be more suitable.

Other than the times I have done some sea-kayaking in Maine, I would go with a canoe, such as my Sawyer Autumn Mist (32 lbs.) or Hornbeck Classic 12 (18 lbs.) for paddling. With the spray skirt, the Sawyer handles wind and waves on big water and the Hornbeck is great for any route with significant carries. In both cases, unlike a kayak, they are easy to load/unload and carry. Unless there are long or many carries, I take both a traditional paddle and a double-blade with me.

 

[MrPoling]

If I'm dealing with a decent fetch over open water, plus swell or chop, then I would much prefer the planted feeling of my touring kayak

You know the best thing for open water and places with big fetch? A sailboat.

Seriously, I'd rather have a small sailboat than a touring kayak. The only real disadvantage to the sailboat is the paperwork and trailer.

 

[Pseudonym]

You know the best thing for open water and places with big fetch? A sailboat.

Seriously, I'd rather have a small sailboat than a touring kayak. The only real disadvantage to the sailboat is the paperwork and trailer.

Agreed! I've got a couple in the quiver but sometimes you really do just need the exercise that comes with a paddle!

 

[Benson Gray]

You know the best thing for open water and places with big fetch? A sailboat.

A sailing canoe is another option.

Benson

 

[Gamma1214]

The only real disadvantage to the sailboat is the paperwork and trailer.

Well, that and the fact that portaging would be a PIA... That mast dragging through the brush, the centerboard catching on every rock unless you hold it well overhead, the canvas sails adding all that extra weight... no wonder the Pilgrims stayed close to the shoreline until the natives taught them about canoes.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I think it all depends on your happy place.
Happy place can change.

What drives me nuts nuts nuts is people asking about the best kayak to do Algonquin portages with!