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River and Lake Canoe Discussion and Input

WonderMonkey said:
The IXP layup is what I've landed on as well, assuming Northstar. The ability to handle the river bumps and grinds led me to that. I know other brands have their version, or maybe a re-name of the same, but I want that type of impact protection. It's good to hear that you have used the Phoenix on flat water sections and seem to be ok with it.

In reading your next paragraph, your use matches mine.

As for Swift, beautiful works of art, but I know I can get similar much cheaper. I'd want their Expedition Kevlar laminate with some other coating they have in order to handle the bumps and grinds like the IXP package from Northstar.
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To be clear, I have not paddled a Phoenix. I had the Guide for years and now I have the Wildfire. Both of those are almost as long as the Phoenix, but with symmetrical rocker. They are both easily class 2+ capable. The Phoenix is said to be similar in river worthiness to the Wildfire but easier to track straight, due to the lower stern rocker and additional ~6" length. I was able to paddle the Guide straight on flats, and it's easier to do so in the Wildfire. But I assume the Phoenix will track easier. As a note - I paddled the Sojourn successfully in non-technical class 2, and it's a hard tracker. Not as enjoyable though and demands a bit more attention.

All of this makes me confident that the Phoenix should be a great all-around solo for lakes and rivers up to class 2+, and higher for a skilled paddler.
 
Steve in Idaho said:
To be clear, I have not paddled a Phoenix. I had the Guide for years and now I have the Wildfire. Both of those are almost as long as the Phoenix, but with symmetrical rocker. They are both easily class 2+ capable. The Phoenix is said to be similar in river worthiness to the Wildfire but easier to track straight, due to the lower stern rocker and additional ~6" length. I was able to paddle the Guide straight on flats, and it's easier to do so in the Wildfire. But I assume the Phoenix will track easier. As a note - I paddled the Sojourn successfully in non-technical class 2, and it's a hard tracker. Not as enjoyable though and demands a bit more attention.

All of this makes me confident that the Phoenix should be a great all-around solo for lakes and rivers up to class 2+, and higher for a skilled paddler.
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Thanks for clarifying, I did read that incorrectly.
 
I concur with the opinions from Steve in Idaho. I have a Phoenix IXP, a Royalex Mad River Guide and a Kevlar Bell Wildfire. The latter two were bought used-both "I can't pass this up"kind of deals. The Phoenix and Wildfire are very similar in handling. I really enjoy both of them on rivers and lakes and have no trouble with tracking. I use a single bladed paddle exclusively and rarely take out my sea kayaks now. I feel more comfortable paddling the Phoenix in rocky rivers with Class 1-2 rapids due to its more robust construction. The Wildfire and Guide, with their wood gunnels, thwarts and decks are more aesthetically appealing to me than the aluminum trimmed Phoenix. Kneeling- I prefer kneeling but also like
 
Forgot about the Clipper Caribou. My buddy has one and is a big guy and carries big load like me. He also uses the double blade in it and he moves along fine. It's a high capacity canoe, and if I recall, the price wasn't a second mortgage.
 
WonderMonkey said:
I can paddle in a straight line just fine, but intermediate and advanced paddling is beyond me at this point.
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Paddling in a straight line is much more than a basic skill. I think I have pretty decent skills and I still struggle to paddle in a straight line in certain boats in certain conditions.

From what I gather you don't have a lot of solo paddling experience. If I was you I'd be looking for a couple used and cheap solo canoes somewhere in the ballpark of what you think you want and then start paddling them as much as you can. Then you'll find out what works for you and what doesn't. If one of those cheap boats fits the bill then great! If not you can sell it for the same price you paid and now you'll have a better idea of what you actually want.

For instance, if I thought a Northstar Phoenix might be a good fit then I'd find an old composite Wildfire and see how I liked it.

Paddling on paper is extremely hard.

Alan
 
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My post (#25) was truncated somehow. I strongly recommend practicing kneeling as you would in a canoe over the winter. It was painful on my ankles to have them flattened out under/behind the seat when I got back into solo canoeing. Now, after doing some kneeling yoga for a couple of years I am much more flexible and enjoy pain free paddling. I put up one foot forward occasionally to stretch out the ankles and also sit sometimes for variety. I would highly recommend the canted kneeling seat from Northstar if you get a Phoenix.
 
Halpc said:
I concur with the opinions from Steve in Idaho. I have a Phoenix IXP, a Royalex Mad River Guide and a Kevlar Bell Wildfire. The latter two were bought used-both "I can't pass this up"kind of deals. The Phoenix and Wildfire are very similar in handling. I really enjoy both of them on rivers and lakes and have no trouble with tracking. I use a single bladed paddle exclusively and rarely take out my sea kayaks now. I feel more comfortable paddling the Phoenix in rocky rivers with Class 1-2 rapids due to its more robust construction. The Wildfire and Guide, with their wood gunnels, thwarts and decks are more aesthetically appealing to me than the aluminum trimmed Phoenix. Kneeling- I prefer kneeling but also like
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Thanks for the input on that.
 
memaquay said:
Forgot about the Clipper Caribou. My buddy has one and is a big guy and carries big load like me. He also uses the double blade in it and he moves along fine. It's a high capacity canoe, and if I recall, the price wasn't a second mortgage.
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And according to your avatar, you like spam. That put your opinion pretty high on my list!
 
Alan Gage said:
Paddling in a straight line is much more than a basic skill. I think I have pretty decent skills and I still struggle to paddle in a straight line in certain boats in certain conditions.

From what I gather you don't have a lot of solo paddling experience. If I was you I'd be looking for a couple used and cheap solo canoes somewhere in the ballpark of what you think you want and then start paddling them as much as you can. Then you'll find out what works for you and what doesn't. If one of those cheap boats fits the bill then great! If not you can sell it for the same price you paid and now you'll have a better idea of what you actually want.

For instance, if I thought a Northstar Phoenix might be a good fit then I'd find an old composite Wildfire and see how I liked it.

Paddling on paper is extremely hard.

Alan
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You are right, I don't have solo canoe paddling experience. Kayak, yes. Though I know what you meant. Good idea on the used boat, I will see what is available in my area. Not a large market around Dayton, Ohio, but I'm willing to travel a certain distance if something intersting is available.
 
Halpc said:
My post (#25) was truncated somehow. I strongly recommend practicing kneeling as you would in a canoe over the winter. It was painful on my ankles to have them flattened out under/behind the seat when I got back into solo canoeing. Now, after doing some kneeling yoga for a couple of years I am much more flexible and enjoy pain free paddling. I put up one foot forward occasionally to stretch out the ankles and also sit sometimes for variety. I would highly recommend the canted kneeling seat from Northstar if you get a Phoenix.
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Interesting. I never considered kneeling yoga. Think that would help me out in my jiu-jitsu?
 
WonderMonkey said:
Since I would enjoy using my double-bladed paddle when trying to make time, would it be a problem for that?
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I have a Swift Prospector 14 Pack, also on the side side, and no problem with double blade. Helps I'm 6-1.

The beefy kevlar layups are tough, but they'll never be as tough as Royalex or T-Formax. I could never be comfortable dragging a heavily loaded kevlar canoe over rocks. I'd feel compelled to unload and portage. I wouldn't give it a second thought if T-Formax or Royalex. Main reason elsewhere I suggested the Esquif Echo.

For test paddling in the east, Mountain Man in Old Forge NY has done weekends where you can test paddle. They are Esquif, Swift, Northstar, and Wenonah dealers along with others. Lots of places to camp around there as well.
 
Alan Gage said:
Paddling in a straight line is much more than a basic skill. I think I have pretty decent skills and I still struggle to paddle in a straight line in certain boats in certain conditions.

From what I gather you don't have a lot of solo paddling experience. If I was you I'd be looking for a couple used and cheap solo canoes somewhere in the ballpark of what you think you want and then start paddling them as much as you can. Then you'll find out what works for you and what doesn't. If one of those cheap boats fits the bill then great! If not you can sell it for the same price you paid and now you'll have a better idea of what you actually want.

For instance, if I thought a Northstar Phoenix might be a good fit then I'd find an old composite Wildfire and see how I liked it.

Paddling on paper is extremely hard.

Alan
Click to expand...

I really think this is the best approach. If you aren't already very experienced in solo canoes it's hard to know what you'd like best once you have had a lot of solo time on the water and refined your skills. Then paying the price for new won't be a gamble.
 
Steve in Idaho said:
I really think this is the best approach. If you aren't already very experienced in solo canoes it's hard to know what you'd like best once you have had a lot of solo time on the water and refined your skills. Then paying the price for new won't be a gamble.
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That wasn't very clear. What I was getting at is that experience will teach you what kind of canoe(s) you will ultimately find most useful. You might get lucky with the first solo canoe you buy, but spending time in a variety of "wrong" canoes - enough time to get to know them - is enlightening in several ways. With careful attention to used price and timing, you can trade canoes without losing significant funds. Eventually, you'll be able to pretty much know what a particular canoe will do just by looking at it.

But the most important thing is to get into any decent solo canoe and learn to make it do what it can with a single blade. That's your best stepping off point IMO.
 
Just adding that I agree with the others that I believe you'll be fine with the Phoenix performance on flat water. If you have no problem with the weight of the IXP lay-up it seems like a great choice since you'd be lucky to wear it out in a lifetime.
 
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