River and Lake Canoe Discussion and Input

[WonderMonkey]

That wasn't very clear. What I was getting at is that experience will teach you what kind of canoe(s) you will ultimately find most useful. You might get lucky with the first solo canoe you buy, but spending time in a variety of "wrong" canoes - enough time to get to know them - is enlightening in several ways. With careful attention to used price and timing, you can trade canoes without losing significant funds. Eventually, you'll be able to pretty much know what a particular canoe will do just by looking at it.

But the most important thing is to get into any decent solo canoe and learn to make it do what it can with a single blade. That's your best stepping off point IMO.

You are right; my experience with what works (for me) and what doesn't is low. I've MADE everything work so far, but I don't know what "good" is yet. I'll add a bit of canoeing experience to what I've mentioned, and that's a generic recreational downriver canoe trip, the kind you go to a livery and do. Though I really had no idea about anything, I did find it difficult to maneuver around corners, in current. I feel that is partly because I have no idea what to do beyond what is kind of intuitive and also because it tracked so well and didn't spin well. That gives me a bit of understanding between a canoe that is a great straight ahead type, and one that spins like a bobber upon demand. All what this means is that I agree, my experience is low, and is mostly internet study based.

 

[WonderMonkey]

Just adding that I agree with the others that I believe you'll be fine with the Phoenix performance on flat water. If you have no problem with the weight of the IXP lay-up it seems like a great choice since you'd be lucky to wear it out in a lifetime.

It is seeming like if I had to purchase blind, that it would. I know we don't want that, but things are pointing that way.

 

[WonderMonkey]

Here you go

Northstar Phoenix Solo Canoe - Lightly Used with Paddles

I'm including a burgundy waterproof cover for it if you need to keep it outside for a time, and a 56" bending branches straight paddle as well as the 260cm bending branches impression double blade paddle.

paddling.com

Thanks for this.

 

[WonderMonkey]

I wanted to mention that you all have been very helpful. Things to think about, alternatives, etc. I appreciate your participation.

 

[Keeled Over]

Some time back I was looking for a flatwater boat and through discussions on this board came to the conclusion that the Wilderness would not be a good match for me due to gravity. I'm 6'2 260 lb.'s and at times bring more gear then I should. For these cold weather, heavy laden trips the thought was the Wilderness might not provide the capacity I would need. I ended up going with the often despised Wenonah Solo Plus and it has worked out very well. I can throw everything in for a solo trip with room to spare and freeboard galore. I put a CCS cover on it and will sheepishly admit I've had water over the bow on way to many occasions. Go to Hayward Outfitters in Hayward, WI and pick up a discounted blem, and then drive directly to CCS and they will install the cover. (You can also do it yourself.) Have you back in Ohio before you know it. Hayward also sells Esquif.

Good luck!

 

[WonderMonkey]

Some time back I was looking for a flatwater boat and through discussions on this board came to the conclusion that the Wilderness would not be a good match for me due to gravity. I'm 6'2 260 lb.'s and at times bring more gear then I should. For these cold weather, heavy laden trips the thought was the Wilderness might not provide the capacity I would need. I ended up going with the often despised Wenonah Solo Plus and it has worked out very well. I can throw everything in for a solo trip with room to spare and freeboard galore. I put a CCS cover on it and will sheepishly admit I've had water over the bow on way to many occasions. Go to Hayward Outfitters in Hayward, WI and pick up a discounted blem, and then drive directly to CCS and they will install the cover. (You can also do it yourself.) Have you back in Ohio before you know it. Hayward also sells Esquif.

Good luck!

Stupid gravity! We are similar in size. If I bought a boat like the Solo Plus, I'd take the bow and stern seats out. I do not want partners in the boat with me, specifically a certain person I really like but have difficulties with as a person in the same boat as me. On long and stressful trips, sure, but not in the same boat. I've come to realize that is how we would have to do in order to stay good friends.

 

[Keeled Over]

Stupid gravity! We are similar in size. If I bought a boat like the Solo Plus, I'd take the bow and stern seats out. I do not want partners in the boat with me, specifically a certain person I really like but have difficulties with as a person in the same boat as me. On long and stressful trips, sure, but not in the same boat. I've come to realize that is how we would have to do in order to stay good friends.

Roger that - as soon as I arrived home I removed both seats and have never even thought about reinstalling them. In fact, I don't even know where they are.

 

[WonderMonkey]

Roger that - as soon as I arrived home I removed both seats and have never even thought about reinstalling them. In fact, I don't even know where they are.

Did you put thwarts in to compensate for the loss of structural strength by removing the seats?

 

[Keeled Over]

Did you put thwarts in to compensate for the loss of structural strength by removing the seats?

I did not - guys at the shop said not needed and I'll have to agree. I've dragged it fully loaded over all manner of dam and such with zero issue.

 

[gumpus]

Well WonderMonkey, if you want a solo canoe that fits your needs I recommend that you jump on that used Phoenix. I expect you could get it for $1800...about half the price of a new one. In the unlikely event that you hate it you can just sell it and there's a good chance that you'll get what you paid or a little more. When I had a Phoenix my normal load was around 280 (me plus dog plus gear). Phoenix is lightly loaded with 280. The IXP lay-up is perfect for you. I'm very tempted to buy that boat.

You already discovered that a tandem is not a solo. I have a Northstar Polaris which has an excellent reputation as a solo for big loads and it solos surprisingly well for a tandem but it is simply not the same as a solo for fit, efficiency and responsiveness.

I do agree that a tandem outfitted for solo can be lovely. I'm 180 pounds and new dog is under 20 so I don't need a solo that can handle 500 pounds but for me it's luxurious to have so much space and comfort when I'm just puttering around and that's why I couldn't resist the used Starfire.

As far as which is better, a true solo or a small tandem set up solo, I think the answer is that they are both better.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

https://www.clippercanoes.com/products/caribou-s

I was just thinking about this canoe you suggested, and had to take a look. I like Clipper's layups and pricing but I've overlooked this one. It does look very good for a large solo paddler with a load. What's intriguing to me is that I think I (not being large) would really like to pole it too. If I ever get a chance at a used one, I'm going to have to buy it.

 

[Black_Fly]

One of the neat things about Kevlar is ease of repair. The Expedition Kevlar from Swift is a fine stream canoe material, and it’s lighter than plastic.

 

[Black_Fly]

IMO, the NC Prospector 14 is excessively wide.

Have you checked out the Swift P14? It’s pretty nimble for the streams I’ve used it on. Better stability than comparable NS boats. Doesn’t feel wide. I had a NC P15 tandem that did nothing really well, but IXP is tough, which it needed to be on small rocky streams.

 

[Ralph]

Just to further muddy the waters, consider the Hellman Solitude. I have one and find it to be very versatile.
https://hellmancanoes.com/the-solitude/

Or, the Clipper Tripper S, set up for solo.

Tripper 'S' 16'6" Canoe

If you are one of the many canoeists who find themselves without a partner on occasion, the Tripper 'S' is just what you have been looking for.

westerncanoekayak.com

 

[WonderMonkey]

Well WonderMonkey, if you want a solo canoe that fits your needs I recommend that you jump on that used Phoenix. I expect you could get it for $1800...about half the price of a new one. In the unlikely event that you hate it you can just sell it and there's a good chance that you'll get what you paid or a little more. When I had a Phoenix my normal load was around 280 (me plus dog plus gear). Phoenix is lightly loaded with 280. The IXP lay-up is perfect for you. I'm very tempted to buy that boat.

You already discovered that a tandem is not a solo. I have a Northstar Polaris which has an excellent reputation as a solo for big loads and it solos surprisingly well for a tandem but it is simply not the same as a solo for fit, efficiency and responsiveness.

I do agree that a tandem outfitted for solo can be lovely. I'm 180 pounds and new dog is under 20 so I don't need a solo that can handle 500 pounds but for me it's luxurious to have so much space and comfort when I'm just puttering around and that's why I couldn't resist the used Starfire.

As far as which is better, a true solo or a small tandem set up solo, I think the answer is that they are both better.

View attachment 144569

I won't be able to buy now so go ahead and make the purchase! Then let me borrow it!

 

[Caledonia]

WonderMonkey, I ended up buying the Phoenix that Gumpus referenced. That was a boat I have been looking for for a while. I was prepared to drive a good distance for one and when the owner got back to me it turned out it was only 15 minutes away. That was finding a needle in the haystack as far as I was concerned. I didn’t dicker on the price. I was happy to find one so close that was well cared for. She had set it up for kneeling which is my preference as well.

The ice melted the day before last and we were able to get the boat out on our pond. All I’ve ever had for a solo is a Curtis Nomad which I adore and bought new around 1994 (Yikes…). It’s not as spry as the Nomad but the Phoenix turns wonderfully and I had no trouble making it run straight. I felt the speed was perfectly adequate for what we’ll use it for. It should be a fun and durable boat for our Ohio rivers. The previous owner had taken it twice to the Boundary Waters. It wouldn’t be my first choice for the BW but I wouldn’t have an issue taking it there if it’s what I had to work with.

Good luck on your hunt and let us know what you come up with! Rob

 

[kona]

For beginners to solo canoes, I think the biggest risk is getting a boat that feels tippy and is a turn off so you don’t go out. Like Alan says, I usually suggest getting something that feels good and gets your excitement up and then you can upgrade later if you figure out what you really need and want.

For new to solo paddlers a proper solo often feels pretty twitchy without a tripping load. A Small tandem outfitted for solo will feel most comfortable early on though it is sensitive to winds. If the paddling passion bug bites and you really start putting in seat time, the small tandem may start feel like a mini barge…less so the taller and heavier you are.

In March-May the used boat ads will appear from everywhere. By august and September deals abound because people want to store their cars under cover. Lots of good boats appear then that were too “tippy” for their newbie owners and rarely hit the water.

 

[WonderMonkey]

One of the neat things about Kevlar is ease of repair. The Expedition Kevlar from Swift is a fine stream canoe material, and it’s lighter than plastic.

For the Swift I was between the Expedition Kevlar and

WonderMonkey, I ended up buying the Phoenix that Gumpus referenced. That was a boat I have been looking for for a while. I was prepared to drive a good distance for one and when the owner got back to me it turned out it was only 15 minutes away. That was finding a needle in the haystack as far as I was concerned. I didn’t dicker on the price. I was happy to find one so close that was well cared for. She had set it up for kneeling which is my preference as well.

The ice melted the day before last and we were able to get the boat out on our pond. All I’ve ever had for a solo is a Curtis Nomad which I adore and bought new around 1994 (Yikes…). It’s not as spry as the Nomad but the Phoenix turns wonderfully and I had no trouble making it run straight. I felt the speed was perfectly adequate for what we’ll use it for. It should be a fun and durable boat for our Ohio rivers. The previous owner had taken it twice to the Boundary Waters. It wouldn’t be my first choice for the BW but I wouldn’t have an issue taking it there if it’s what I had to work with.

Good luck on your hunt and let us know what you come up with! Rob

Glad you found that needle in the haystack! I'm also in Ohio, but closer to Dayton. I feel the Phoenix or the Solo would work, given what I'll be doing, and I'll deal with the slight deficiencies as needed. I haven't bought yet, though, and I still have about eight canoes on my list to investigate at Canoecopia and hopefully try out at some point. I'm also still mulling over a cheaper, durable river canoe and one specifically for Quetico/BWCA, but I know the Phoenix/Solo would also do me right.

 

[WonderMonkey]

For beginners to solo canoes, I think the biggest risk is getting a boat that feels tippy and is a turn off so you don’t go out. Like Alan says, I usually suggest getting something that feels good and gets your excitement up and then you can upgrade later if you figure out what you really need and want.

For new to solo paddlers a proper solo often feels pretty twitchy without a tripping load. A Small tandem outfitted for solo will feel most comfortable early on though it is sensitive to winds. If the paddling passion bug bites and you really start putting in seat time, the small tandem may start feel like a mini barge…less so the taller and heavier you are.

In March-May the used boat ads will appear from everywhere. By august and September deals abound because people want to store their cars under cover. Lots of good boats appear then that were too “tippy” for their newbie owners and rarely hit the water.

I hear what you are saying about not feeling stable, but I think I'll get over that quickly. I'll take it to a shallow lake and get it up on edge and practice my strokes and generally get a feel for it so when I go on a trip it's not my first time. I do recall the first time I got in a kayak and felt wobbly. Intentionally putting it in what I thought was risky positions allowed me to flex what it could do.

When I bought my Northwind 16, which is a solo/tandem, I did put some weight in it when I would practice so I didn't feel like a bobber out there spinning in the wind.

I will keep an eye out for used ones after March. I'll be back from Canoecopia and would have had a chance to lay hands on several brands and models.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

For beginners to solo canoes, I think the biggest risk is getting a boat that feels tippy and is a turn off so you don’t go out. Like Alan says, I usually suggest getting something that feels good and gets your excitement up and then you can upgrade later if you figure out what you really need and want.

For new to solo paddlers a proper solo often feels pretty twitchy without a tripping load. A Small tandem outfitted for solo will feel most comfortable early on though it is sensitive to winds. If the paddling passion bug bites and you really start putting in seat time, the small tandem may start feel like a mini barge…less so the taller and heavier you are.

In March-May the used boat ads will appear from everywhere. By august and September deals abound because people want to store their cars under cover. Lots of good boats appear then that were too “tippy” for their newbie owners and rarely hit the water.

That's all true, but an individual who does not shy away from a moderate physical challenge will probably be better off going right to a fairly high performance solo. Once I decided I really wanted one, my first solo canoe canoe was a Dagger Sojourn. I wasn't sure about it after my first time in it, and I didn't get really comfortable in it for some time. But I eventually became very comfortable in it and was glad that I started with that.