Barracuda Build

[Momentum]

Alan, Just curious...what made you choose the Barracuda design in the first place?
Was there a particular feature that appealed to you more than others?
I don't know enough about canoe design to know what or would not make a significant difference.
Any advice to people thinking about choosing a design for their next build?

Momentum

 

[Alan Gage]

Lack of other choices and curiosity mainly. I wanted a workout boat and it's the only thing I could find in woodstrip I thought might fit the bill. Plus it was designed by a well respected designer in John Winters. Then when I couldn't find any info about it it made me all the more curious and finally I just had to find out. I've been eyeing this design for the past couple years.

As far as picking out different hulls I don't know a whole lot about canoe design either but I've bought a lot of used boats in the process of trying to find what I do and don't like. So by looking at specs and comparing it to boats I've owned before I can usually get a pretty good idea if I'll like a boat or not. I also do a lot of forum searching to see what other people think of the boat. There can be a lot of info if it's also available commercially and while you of course can't take everyone at their word you can get a general idea of how the boat will perform. It's best to find respondents that share your paddling style and many times you have to read between the lines.

But I think the only way to really figure it out is to paddle lots of different boats, and I don't just mean for 10 minutes at a demo day paddle. We're getting away from building here but I'm a big advocate of buying used boats at a good price. If you like it, great, you just got a cheap boat. If you don't like it you can usually sell it for the price you paid, sometimes more, and you learned a lot. I feel the same about building boats. It's fun, you learn a lot in the process that can be applied to future builds, and it's relatively inexpensive. No reason not to take a chance, you're going to learn a lot either way. If it doesn't work out there's always next time.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Got back from Sioux Falls with my old, new, whatever you want to call them boats late this evening. I sold them to the guy probably 3 years ago and they've been in his storage unit the whole time, never hit the water. So one is still in as nice of condition as when I sold it and the other is still in as bad of condition. A Wabash Valley (Ted Bell's old company) X-Cell at 18.5' and a Wenonah J-180 at 18'. They look really sleek and fast until you compare them to a newer designed Marathon boat, then they look almost like a tripping boat by comparison. The J-180 is probably 30 pounds and the X-Cell 35 I'd guess. Went directly to the lake when I got home for a couple test paddles.


20090907_003 copy_web by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Did the same 2 mile run with each boat that I did this morning with the Magic and Barracuda. Definitely faster but not as much as I would have thought over the 2 mile run. The two marathon boats were within a few seconds of each other at around 21 min. 54 sec. with an average speed of 5.4 mph and heart rate average of 161. So 20 seconds faster than the Barracuda and 26 seconds faster than the Magic with .1 mph faster avg. speed.

The big difference however was in sprinting speed. With the Magic and Barracuda it's a struggle to get them to 6mph and then you work and work and then work a little harder to get them up to 6.2 or 6.3 mph. With the marathon boats it's a struggle to get them up to 6.5 and then you work and work a little more to get them up to 6.9 mph. So there appears to be a lot more speed available on the top end that's there for the taking as strength improves.

But maybe there's some hope afterall. I don't expect the Barracuda to be as fast as a marathon boat (though these are slow by comparison to new models) and it's not too far off on a longer run, although .1 mph would be big in an 8 mile race. I'm really curious to get to Minneapolis and test paddle a Savage River Blackwater in the near future. Right now that's the fastest thing going in the stock racing class. 17' long, supposedly very stable, very fast, and has enough capacity that people use it for tripping. I'm very interested what kind of speed I can get out of it. That's the bar I'm holding the Barracuda up to. If the speeds are close I guess I'll just shut up and start getting in better shape.

I'm also hoping, at the same time, that I can take the Barracuda to Minneapolis and have a strong paddler I know take it out for a spin and see how it does for him.

The dog did not come along in the marathon boats tonight. I did talk her into jumping into the bow of one just to see. After she gave me a "you've got to be kidding look" when I first suggested it she hopped in, tried to turn to the right, tried to turn to the left, got stuck halfway around, and then jumped back out.

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

Here is a wood strip version of those racers... http://www.bearmountainboats.com/plans/canoe-plans/#!/~/product/category=2192040&id=8254813

 

[Alan Gage]

Thanks. I've seen that one. I'm not really looking for a marathon boat though. The only reason I got these two back was because it was only a couple hundred bucks and it's fun to have them to play and practice in now and again. What I really want is something faster than the Magic and Barracuda but with room for the dog and that can be paddled in something other than flat water. The pros can paddle marathon boats in some really bad conditions but I'm no pro and I doubt I'd ever get the seat time in a marathon C1 to reach that level.

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

Thanks. I've seen that one. I'm not really looking for a marathon boat though. The only reason I got these two back was because it was only a couple hundred bucks and it's fun to have them to play and practice in now and again. What I really want is something faster than the Magic and Barracuda but with room for the dog and that can be paddled in something other than flat water. The pros can paddle marathon boats in some really bad conditions but I'm no pro and I doubt I'd ever get the seat time in a marathon C1 to reach that level.

Alan

So... you will be designing your own hull soon.

 

[Alan Gage]

I'll find out in a week or so but I think Mr. Diller already designed it with the Blackwater.....just need to figure out how to get my hands on one for keeps.

http://www.savageriver.com/canoes/racing/blackwater

That being said I do think it would be really fun to try and design my own hull. I know I can't do anything better than the designers that do it for a living but it would be fun, satisfying (if it worked) and a great learning experience. Besides, I'm always looking for a fun winter project that allows me to put off all the other winter projects I have that aren't so fun.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Took the afternoon off work yesterday and drove to Minneapolis to try out Dan Cooke's Savage River Blackwater at their weekly paddle get together. And the results are.......I need to work on me, not the boat.

No doubt it's a faster boat than either my Magic or Barracuda but it's not the night and day difference I thought it would be. I was .1 to maybe .2 mph faster on a sprint and while I didn't have my heart rate monitor on (though I did have the GPS) it didn't really feel any easier at 5.5 or 6 mph than my other boats either.

So I guess I'll take back all the bad things I said about the speed of the Barracuda and work on my conditioning. The Blackwater was a really nice boat though. Very sex looking and weighed only 23 pounds. The bow is tucked in a bit but the dog still fit. Very stable. I wouldn't mind having one but don't think I could justify the price tag.

I'm sure as I get back into shape I'll run into a wall with the boats I've got and at that point something like the Blackwater would pay off in terms of speed, but I've got a ways to go to get there.

Perhaps my dream boat, something closer to marathon C1 speed but with a little more stability, doesn't exist.

Alan

 

[Guest]

No Title

Thanks for the thread Alan. I'm working on finishing up my barracuda that I started almost a year ago. I wanted a fast training boat that I could use for light tripping too. I noticed the barracuda, but I could never find out much about it. Then I noticed I could try one out at NW Canoe. I would get a C-1 and a solo tripping boat, but my garage is small and my wife would not be very happy. So, I went to the classes at Northwest Canoe since I knew nothing about building boats and this is my first build.

I ended up building it out of white cedar using a mahogany sheer strip. I figured that way if I use an inwale only, the mahogany will add some durability to the top of the sheer. I used composite staples so I could just sand them off and used a block plane to bevel the edges.. I have the inside and outside glassed and will put on a sitka spruce gunwale soon. It's turned out pretty good for my first boat thanks to the classes. Right now I'm at 28 lbs since I glassed the inside while it was relatively cool and the epoxy was slightly thick. I'm not sure if I can sand it down to get rid of some of the excess or just leave it.

Anyways, I really like your setup for your seat and was wondering if you would build it the same or modify it after using it for a little while? Also, I was thinking of getting a cover for trips from Dan Cooke and I was curious if you thought that would work? When I took the NW one for a test paddle I went through some barge waves and a paddle boat wave. I took on some water, but I think it would be fine with a deck. This is relative to taking a V-1 through a barge wave where we often take on a lot of water. My other option would be to put a bailer in the bottom.

Thanks again for all the information on your build.

 

[Alan Gage]

Great looking boat, it's nice to see another one taking shape. I like the dark sheer strip. I'm interested to know how much strength it adds. I was thinking of doing something similar on my next boats. I can probably get my hands on some free Ash to to rip some strips out of. I though they'd make a nice contrast at the sheer as well as adding some strength for when I go light on the gunwales, or no gunwales at all.

How did you like using the composite staples? I'm thinking seriously about going that route too. It sure looks like a nice way to do it. How much beating did it take to get the forms off? Seems like the stem forms would be the most difficult.

I've paddled my Barracuda quite a bit and there's not really anything I'd change on the seat. It can be a bit difficult to slide on the fly sometimes as the tube ends can hang up in the tracks. I can always move it but not always as easy as I'd like. I'm blaming that on the fact that I haven't finished shaping or polishing the tub ends were I cut and bent them to fit in the track. I'm hoping once those are smoothed up it will be better.

One idea I've seen since I did mine that seems much simpler, lighter, and easier to execute is to use aluminum angle riveted to the side of the hull and then just cut a slit down each end of the foot brace tube wide enough to fit over the edge of the aluminum angle. In hindsight I probably would have went that route just because it would have been so much faster and I was in a hurry to get it done. If I later decided I wanted to change the design it would be a simple matter of removing a few rivets and starting over from scratch.

I think that light tripping in the boat would be doable with a cover, or even without if you were careful about where you went and in what weather conditions. I haven't had it out in very big waves yet but when quartering some smaller waves there was some splash over on the sides. Enough to see that in bigger waves it could get a bit wet inside. This was with 235 pounds total weight (boat, me, dog, and ballast for said dog) A bailer would be a nice addition but if I was tripping I'd prefer to keep water out in the first place just to keep things drier inside.

I'm excited to see yours done and on the water to hear your impressions of it. Since you mentioned a V1 you must do some racing so I'm curious about your impressions of the speed.

Alan

 

[stripperguy]

Yeah, I want to hear more about those composite staples too!!
Are the staples the same width as a standard T50?

 

[Guest]

No Title

The composite staples worked well, although I have no experience using traditional staples. I opted to use that route to save time since I don't have a lot of free time. I bought the staples and stapler from Dennis at NW Canoe since I believe they will not work with another stapler and I'm pretty sure they will not work with a T50. I also wasn't planning to make too many canoes so I figured a hand stapler would work fine. There shear strength is minimal, so I was able to sand them off with my sander. I would guess that you could just knock them off if you prefer to start with a block plane, but I figured the time I saved not having to pull staples could be used to sand. I might have been wrong. Removing the forms was simple too due to the minimal shear strength. The stem forms came out relatively easy. If you look on NW Canoe's facebook page, there is a video showing how easy the forms are to knock out. You might be able to see them in this photo too.

In regards to the foot brace you mention, is the aluminum angle less than 90 degrees? Or, how does the foot brace stay on the aluminum angles without falling off. My original idea before a friend showed me your thread was to build two bulk heads with a pedestal support in the middle and run a connected setup on two rails connecting the bulkheads. The foot brace wouldn't extend to the sides, but I usually use foot straps on the foot brace anyways. The aluminum angle might be nicer though and I'd be able to have my daughter sit in front of me while we went out for a ride.

I emailed Dan Cooke about getting a cover. I think it would work well for tripping and paddling early/late in the year. At a minimum, a front deck should keep out most of the water, but rear one would probably be beneficial too.

I'll be excited to compare it to a couple of friends boats (J-201, J-203, and possibly a Wenonah Voyager) even though I'm sure they'll be faster. I never figured this boat would be as fast, but I was hoping to use it for light tripping too. I'd really like to compare it to a Jensen F1 or Clipper Freedom.

 

[Alan Gage]

Yeah, I want to hear more about those composite staples too!!
Are the staples the same width as a standard T50?

Looks like they're 1/8" wider for their traditional stapler.

http://raptornails.com/product-catalog/staples.php

From what I've seen and heard so far they seem really nice. A bit more money since you have to buy the dedicated stapler but not pulling staples would sure be nice. And no air bubbles/divets from the staple holes when glassing either. I haven't seen any up close pics of how well the finished staples blend in.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

In regards to the foot brace you mention, is the aluminum angle less than 90 degrees? Or, how does the foot brace stay on the aluminum angles without falling off.

Good question and I wonder why I didn't think of it myself when I saw the pictures of that setup. Two things come to mind:

1: The aluminum angle on each side was installed so that they were parallel with each other (rather than the front being farther apart than the rear) so that a solid foot brace was used rather than telescoping.

2: A light spring setup inside the telescoping foot brace to keep a little pressure pushing outwards so that it didn't collapse on itself and fall of the aluminum angle. Maybe if I have time tonight I'll see if I can find the thread where I saw the original pics.

[qoute]My original idea before a friend showed me your thread was to build two bulk heads with a pedestal support in the middle and run a connected setup on two rails connecting the bulkheads. The foot brace wouldn't extend to the sides, but I usually use foot straps on the foot brace anyways. The aluminum angle might be nicer though and I'd be able to have my daughter sit in front of me while we went out for a ride.
[/QUOTE]

I'm having a hard time picturing that. When I hear bulkead I think of something solid running left to right across the entire hull and I can't envision how that would work for a foot brace. Or do you mean something similar to a sliding pedestal seat?

Alan

 

[Guest]

Good question and I wonder why I didn't think of it myself when I saw the pictures of that setup. Two things come to mind:

1: The aluminum angle on each side was installed so that they were parallel with each other (rather than the front being farther apart than the rear) so that a solid foot brace was used rather than telescoping.

I think I see an example under the options section for the Blackwater on Savage River's page. They have both a parallel and telescoping foot brace option. The parallel is like you describe in 1., the telescoping is similar to your design, but uses a tube.

I'm having a hard time picturing that. When I hear bulkead I think of something solid running left to right across the entire hull and I can't envision how that would work for a foot brace. Or do you mean something similar to a sliding pedestal seat?

I would put the bulkheads like you picture far apart and run long tubes across the top. The seat and foot brace would be connected and would slide between the two bulkheads. So it would be like really long rails set on two spread out bulkheads rather than the pedestal. The bulkheads may not be necessary though. Did they make your boat more rigid or was it fairly stiff without the bulkhead.

I'm leaning towards a setup like the parallel sliding foot brace with the seat set on a bulkhead similar to the Savage River setup.

 

[Guest]

From what I've seen and heard so far they seem really nice. A bit more money since you have to buy the dedicated stapler but not pulling staples would sure be nice. And no air bubbles/divets from the staple holes when glassing either. I haven't seen any up close pics of how well the finished staples blend in.

I have no other experience to compare them too, but they do vibrate loose occasionally, so you still need to go over the "holes" with thickened epoxy to fill any potential holes where the "staple" fell out. The basically look like a very small spot filled with thickened epoxy using cab-o-sil.

 

[Alan Gage]

Ok, I think I see on the seat/foot brace now. So there would be one bulkhead behind the seat and another in front of the foot brace. A pair of tubes would span that gap, front to back, and both the seat and foot brace would slide on the same set of tubes. Is that correct?

If that's the case I'd be worried about the length of the tubes and if they could withstand the weight with such a long span. Depending on how tall you are, how much flexibility you want to design into it so people with other leg lengths can adjust to their taste, and how much seat travel you want you'd be looking at 5-6 foot long tubes. But it sounds like you've moved on from that idea anyway.

While interference with foot position isn't a real big deal on a racing boat, since your feet pretty much always stay on the brace, it can make a big difference when just paddling for pleasure or tripping. If I'm not paddling hard I prefer to pull one or both legs back towards my body and sit cross legged. I find it more comfortable for relaxed paddling and it just give you a nice change of pace. In my first stripper I installed a homemade sliding pedestal and I don't like it at all. Since the seat is usually slid back quite a ways the front of the rails stick out past the front of the seat, which means I can't pull my legs back all the way. This winter I'll be taking that pedestal out and putting something else in that doesn't interfere with leg placement. That's why when I built my Barracuda I didn't install a front bulkhead for the seat and kept the aluminum tubing spread apart as far as I could. I can do anything I want with my legs in that boat.

I'm sure the bulkhead stiffened the hull but I doubt it was necessary. I thought it would be a nice place to attach drink holders and such and it made an easy way to attach the rear of the seat tubes.

I don't know how much you're trying to do yourself and how much money you're trying to save but another option would be to just buy the sliding foot brace setup that Wenonah uses, remove the locking knobs, and tie the foot brace in with the seat.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Always keeping an eye out for new ideas to steal.

Alan