what is Swift cooking up?

[Nodrama43]

Glenn I thought the same exact way. I liked the Innegra on the outside, but wanted it on the inside more, and did not want an entire boat of Innegra. I was wanting contrast. I have a black carbon Northstar Polaris and did not want another black boat.

another thing is that Swift does not offer the scrim cloth on their website but were more than happy to build it that way for me. I think they will build you a custom boat any way you want it Glenn. They just call it a "custom" build.

 

[Nodrama43]

is there a difference between "Basalt" Innegra and carbon "h weave" Innegra?

 

[Alan Gage]

is there a difference between "Basalt" Innegra and carbon "h weave" Innegra?

Carbon, Innegra, and Basalt are three different things. Cabon/Innegra is both fibers woven together in the same cloth. Same for Basalt/Innegra. So yes, there is a difference. Exactly what that difference is (weight, abrasion resistance, stiffness) I'm not sure.

Alan

 

[Nodrama43]

[TABLE="class: lines workorders, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]

this is copied directly from my invoice. I "believe" the basalt is used in the expedition layup. I just looked at the Swift site and they only talk Basalt in the expedition layups...It is def heavier than the Carbon/Innegra.




Build; Swift Shearwater​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $3195.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Laminate; Kevlar Fusion *​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Trim; Carbon Kevlar Black/Yellow Weave​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $300.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Swift Colours; Ruby​

with Carbon Scrim Exterior Layer / Carbon Innegra H-Weave Interior Layer​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $200.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

TwoTone; Champagne*​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Decals; Champagne*​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Build; Carbon Seat Solo*​

Fixed Carbon Webbed Seat​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Build; Carbon Foot Bar​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $175.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Build; Carbon Tech Package Solo Boats​

Carbon End Caps, Carry Handles, Sidepods, Thwarts​

[/TD]
[TD="class: amount"] $250.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

Build; Carbon Detachable Yoke​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[yellowcanoe]

One thing to think about is your visual reaction to moving pattern on water. I paddled some Swifts with the tweed interior and they made me nauseous. Kevlar has long been used as an inner layer in carbon fiber boats. My RapidFire (2006) was cf with a Kevlar interior. Same for my DragonFly 2012. Most patching that is DIY is done from the interior and Kevlar matches up nicely for a less obtrusive patch.

Since there is a bit of a link between Placid and Swift it is understandable that some of the earlier Placid layups are possible in Swift boats.. Not sure Placid has gotten into basalt or innegra at this time.

I am hoping you got the cherry outwales with the carbon'kevlar weave gunwales. First done at Placid the fabric even finished is ROUGH on your knuckles. You will be trained not to use the gunwales to pry off your J stroke.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Carbon Scrim Exterior Layer

Nodrama, what exactly is this?

YC, have you paddled the Key 15? If so, how would you compare it to the Peregrine and Nomad?

 

[Nodrama43]

I would hate to have to go to Walmart and get some spray paint for the inside of my new canoe to avert motion sickness...

 

[Nodrama43]

No Title

Glenn the scrim layer is a very light carbon mesh layer adds very little weight, described to me as "miniscule". It serves to darken the color of the canoe. If you look at these pictures closely you can see the layer. For lack of a better explanation it looks like a piece of screen door screen to me. In photo number three you can see the Basalt Innegra inner layer in the canoe on the right. That particular canoe is the expedition layup.

 

[Muskrat]

Basalt is made of basalt, a mineral. Innegra is polypropylene. Basalt is fairly dense, on par with fiberglass, about 2.5 g/cc. Innergra is the least dense of all the materials in composite canoes, I think around .9 g/cc, lighter than water. I don't really recall any other specs

 

[yellowcanoe]

YC, have you paddled the Key 15? If so, how would you compare it to the Peregrine and Nomad?

Its a bit more maneuverable than the Nomad and a whole lot maneuverable compared to the Peregrine.. My subjective impressions were that it was more flat bottomed than Nomad. My Peregrine had no rocker. You could chalkline the whole length. It is supposed to have rocker but mine didn't
I paddled Kee at the SWPA Solo Canoe Rendezvous and the Adirondack Canoe Symposium

You know the Swift options are making car buying and canoe buying similar.. I get confused with too many choices

I do know that I will never want any part of Textreme Carbon Innegra. That pattern to me on the water is similarly nauseating.. However in camp it makes a good checkerboard.

 

[Guest]

I do know that I will never want any part of Textreme Carbon Innegra. That pattern to me on the water is similarly nauseating.. However in camp it makes a good checkerboard.

I kinda like that high techy-techy appearance, at least with the 30 foot rule applied. Not sure about seeing it all day up close from inside the canoe.

I know this is not what a manufacturer wants to hear, but my first outfitting tweak would be to remove the Swift and Keewaydin labels. I think the canoe would look better, more pure, without the logo, lettering and stripe. Maybe leave the stripe on a hull without the two-tone as a trim check line.

If those are simply vinyl letters and side stripe the time to remove them is before they inevitably become scraped and scratched ugly, when they peel off easier in easy one piece without leaving a UV protected ghost shadow on the hull underneath.

Apologies to Swift, whose logo/lettering is relatively unobnoxious. MAD RIVER CANOE’s latter day giant block letters probably top the fugly, gotta go bar.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Another confusing thing to me, and which I'll ask Swift if I talk to them again, is that on all their canoe price lists (U.S., Canadian) they list "Carbon Innegra Cloth (Black/White H-Weave)" as a no-charge exterior color option for both the Kevlar Fusion and Carbon Fusion layups. Yet Carbon Fusion is $400 U.S. more and two pounds lighter than Kevlar Fusion across the board for all the solo canoes.

It makes me wonder what the heck Swift even means by the terms Carbon Fusion and Kevlar Fusion, since they don't really specify the lamination schedules in any detail. The website says that Kevlar Fusion uses S glass in the laminate, but Scott told me that's no longer true for newer boats. The price list also says: "All Carbon Fusion boats come standard with Carbon Innegra Interior" -- yet the website and posters here show pictures of Carbon Fusion boats with Kevlar interiors.

What lamination differences make a Kevlar Fusion canoe two pounds heavier, supposedly stronger, and $400 less expensive than a Carbon Fusion? Especially when you seemingly can get the same exterior and interior fabric layers with either Swift "(Con)Fusion" layup.

 

[Alan Gage]

Another confusing thing to me, and which I'll ask Swift if I talk to them again, is that on all their canoe price lists (U.S., Canadian) they list "Carbon Innegra Cloth (Black/White H-Weave)" as a no-charge exterior color option for both the Kevlar Fusion and Carbon Fusion layups. Yet Carbon Fusion is $400 U.S. more and two pounds lighter than Kevlar Fusion across the board for all the solo canoes.

It makes me wonder what the heck Swift even means by the terms Carbon Fusion and Kevlar Fusion, since they don't really specify the lamination schedules in any detail. The website says that Kevlar Fusion uses S glass in the laminate, but Scott told me that's no longer true for newer boats. The price list also says: "All Carbon Fusion boats come standard with Carbon Innegra Interior" -- yet the website and posters here show pictures of Carbon Fusion boats with Kevlar interiors.

What lamination differences make a Kevlar Fusion canoe two pounds heavier, supposedly stronger, and $400 less expensive than a Carbon Fusion? Especially when you seemingly can get the same exterior and interior fabric layers with either Swift "(Con)Fusion" layup.

Good questions. I hope Swift can answer them definitively for you. I'm assuming the cloth price is the reason Carbon Fusion is more expensive than Kevlar Fusion. And I'd guess the reason for the 2 pounds extra weight in the Kevlar Fusion as opposed to the Carbon Fusion is that more layers, or maybe thicker Kevlar cloth, is required to achieve the same stiffness. Or maybe they're giving up some strength for weight savings in the Carbon Fusion layup.

And I also believe that Carbon/Innegra cloth is about the same price as Kevlar, hence no upcharge for that option in either layup. I'm assuming the Carbon/Innegra exterior isn't added to the existing layup but rather that it replaces the outer layer of kevlar or carbon.

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Nodrama got upcharged $200 on his "Kevlar Fusion" for the Carbon Innegra interior plus the carbon scrim.

The Kevlar Fusion clear coat colors of red, green and blue are due to an outer layer of polyester cloth, chosen simply for color pop. The "golden" clear coat color is presumably just an outer Kevlar layer with no polyester cloth. The Carbon-Innegra cloth can apparently replace the polyester cloth as the exterior layer for no charge on a Kevlar Fusion, but it costs more on the inside per Nodrama's invoice. That all these things can weigh the same seems very unlikely to me.

The "standard" (non-clear coat) Kevlar/Carbon Fusion colors are due to gel coat, and are said on the price list to add 3-5 pounds of extra weight. Other Swift info says 8 pounds.

I'm very picky about weight claims. I once tried very seriously to by a Mariner Kayak 20 years ago and asked Matt Broze to stand by his weight claims. I offered to pay $200 more for each pound the actual boat weighed less than the advertised claim, but would pay $200 less for each pound more than the claim. I sent him a formal contract with with these proposals. He refused.

Instead, I bought an infused Surge Marine Surge kayak with Kevlar deck and carbon hull that came in exactly at the objective of 36 pounds. Kerry King at Surge was using vacuum infusion about 15 years before Placid Boatworks and 20 years before Swift.

 

[Alan Gage]

Nodrama got upcharged $200 on his "Kevlar Fusion" for the Carbon Innegra interior plus the carbon scrim.

Right you are. They're lumped together but it would be nice to see those two broken up. The carbon scrim would certainly be an extra layer on top of everything else so not only do you have extra expense for the cloth itself bu also extra labor to lay it in the mold. Maybe most of that $200 is for the scrim.

The Carbon-Innegra cloth can apparently replace the polyester cloth as the exterior layer for no charge on a Kevlar Fusion, but it costs more on the inside per Nodrama's invoice. That all these things can weigh the same seems very unlikely to me.

I believe most of the cloth used in canoe construction is the same weight; usually 5-6 ounces/sq. yard. So a layer of E-glass and a layer of carbon cloth will both be about the same weight; but the carbon layer will be thicker and stronger. I'm not sure what the difference in resin consumption is when you keep the weight of the cloth the same but add to the volume.

Alan

 

[icedragonmx]

very nice canoe.....That teXtreme is good looking $tuff for $ure.......congrats on a gorgeous boat. What pack is that lying behind the seat?

Thanks, the dry bag is a MEC 70Lt with the hip belt etc. https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5030-380/Slogg-Deluxe-70-Dry-Pack

I did not have an option for the interior layup at the time of purchase, all those options came a year later I am very happy with the canoe and just need to find some new routes for it! The Mountains are calling for another "top of the hill" type lake run.

 

[Nodrama43]

if you just get the scrim....it costs 100.00. If you just get the carbon Innegra....it costs 100.00. Both are simply a 100.00 price upgrade. I think you guys might be missing the point that when you add the carbon Innegra weave cloth to either the inside or the outside, something else gets removed from the layup. The scrim layer is an addition to tone the color down and I believe that is it's only purpose. I will be sure and let you know how much it weighs when I get it home.

In terms of pricing I had them price it to me in Canadian funds with 13% Canadian tax. I am going to drive the 9 hours to get it. With travel expenses added in I still saved about 500.00 American dollars by not having them price it in US dollars and ship it to me.

Glen if you build a Kev Fusion boat the Innegra outside layer replaces the color layer....just think of it as another color option. Also I am not sure who you are talking to but I dealt with Scott Way. He took the time to answer all my questions which took about 6 telephone calls.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

In terms of pricing I had them price it to me in Canadian funds with 13% Canadian tax. I am going to drive the 9 hours to get it. With travel expenses added in I still saved about 500.00 American dollars by not having them price it in US dollars and ship it to me.

Very clever and intriguing. How will you make the actual payment to get the most out of the exchange rate difference? Exchanging US dollars for Canadian somewhere and paying Swift cash? Or using a credit card?

 

[Guest]

Years ago I bought an Osprey and drove up to Swift to buy it. The exchange rate was high, and at that time, and you got a refund on both taxes you had to pay when you came back into the US-one at the border and one by mail later. I think you only get one refunded now. saved a lot.
Turtle

 

[yellowcanoe]

That was in the days of the PST and the GST.. one provincial one federal tax. Now there is one tax HST and you get none of it back at the border or later.. That loophole is gone.

But duty is gone too for now.. thanks to NAFTA