Larger Canoe: Tumblehome or Not

[recped]

On the rare occasions when I paddle in a popular area where there are lots of other canoes I like to watch the tandems go by, you can easily tell who has experience and who doesn't. The experienced paddlers are perfectly in sync and move in a straight line, the newbies can't stay in sync for more than a couple of paddle strokes without wobbling left and right usually with the stern paddler having to do constant correction strokes which leads to more out of sync action and even more wobbling.

Putting three paddlers in a boat will just make it worse.

I have seen canoe camp groups with 3/boat, the occupant of the centre seat relaxes and enjoys the scenery, they do not paddle at all.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Here's another you might want to consider....

18’6 MacKenzie

For unbelievable performance in a large capacity touring canoe, try the 18'6" MacKenzie. Load it up with camping gear, the kids and the dog - and you’re set for a wilderness adventure.

www.clippercanoes.com

"18’6″ MacKenzie will carry 1400 lbs with 7″ of freeboard." That would work.

 

[Punkinhead]

I was paddling in the Everglades this morning and an old Grumman came wobbling out of a canal to share the lake with me. The three occupants appeared to be college age males and were wearing ancient life jackets and using plastic paddles that were clearly rentals. It was a complete cluster with all three of them attempting to paddle and none knowing how to do it. They meandered aimlessly and made a lot of noise shouting at each other. I was actually mildly impressed that they'd made it the several miles from the marina. They must have looked like a pinball bouncing off the canal banks.

Maybe three people who know what they're doing could make it work but it just seems like a bad idea to try. The center person simply shouldn't paddle. Better yet, instead of overloading one canoe, someone should be soloing.

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks guys, I’ll check out the Mackenzie. I’ve looked into the Kevlar repair and know I’ll be signing up for dealing with Kevlar fuzz if there’s no fiberglass, figure I can make it work either way / one way or another. Did some quick research on UV and am seeing some reports of people using these Kevlar canoes 20-30 years in some cases, so that’s good.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

One of the saddest things I've seen was the SR canoe that I assume was epoxy/kevlar like the others. It was stored under cover, but had decades of frequent use. Looked like it would crumble if you touched it, and I would never get in it. It had lots and lots of miles on it, but still..... gave me pause, when thinking about no-pigment kevlar.

Another thing about skin coat kevlar....
Kevlar fuzzes when abraded. I very much prefer my non-gelcoated kevlar canoes to have S glass as the outer layer because its more abrasion resistant and adds some stiffness to the hull. That's how my Millbrook Coho is built, and some would say I abuse that boat - yet, it shows nothing worse than a bazillion surface scratches.

One of the nice things about the Souris River canoes is the exterior layer of the of their canoes is not Kevlar, but Fiberglass. It makes fixing cracks and other boo-boos a lot easier.

There is a website by the famous, or maybe infamous, Joe Baltich at the Red Rock Lodge (RedRockStore.com) with some interesting highly-biased reading and videos with quite a bit of good information, pushing the SR canoes that he sold. Interesting fellow though; we stayed at his lodge a couple of decades ago and he and his wife were wonderful hosts.

 

[PaddleTime]

On the paddling, curious if there’s any reason other than the long reach and possible balance issues regarding why the middle person shouldn’t paddle? We can definitely practice, and maybe give a double bladed paddle a try, I even already have one. That said if it can’t work, I suppose having that as a rest / fishing position wouldn’t be so bad.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

On the paddling, curious if there’s any reason other than the long reach and possible balance issues regarding why the middle person shouldn’t paddle? We can definitely practice, and maybe give a double bladed paddle a try, I even already have one. That said if it can’t work, I suppose having that as a rest / fishing position wouldn’t be so bad.

It takes a while for an inexperienced tandem team to get good at making the boat go where they want it. Adding a third single blade would complicate that further. As hard as it is, starting out, to determine how the canoe responds to your strokes with two untrained and unpracticed paddlers, adding a third would make it frustratingly difficult.

I envision three strong men practicing imperfect forward strokes with the boat going off course and overcorrecting repeatedly as we see with unskilled tandem paddlers - only worse.

As a contrast - when paddling solo, there's no question who's stroke is doing the most "damage", and learning to correct and eventually avoid that comes far easier IME.

 

[Pseudonym]

Three single blades would be tricky enough to get everyone in sync and moving straight ahead. Two singles and a double would be even harder. You’d need a coxswain.

There’s a different cadence between canoe strokes and double-bladed paddling.

Every canoe stroke requires a recovery period, during which you bring the paddle forward and into the starting position for a new stroke. Whereas a double blade makes alternating strokes continuously, without any lapse between strokes, because the recovery on one side happens simultaneously with the opposite stroke.

A stern paddler’s corrective strokes (steering) can take longer than the recovery, so the stroke frequency isn’t likely to sync up with that of a double blade stroke.

Because of the proximity between the stern and middle paddler (albeit depending on boat size), the stern person likely can’t stroke unless it’s during the double-blade paddler’s opposite stoke, or the paddles might hit, especially with a double blade long enough to allow for a beamy 3 person boat. That means the stern person will regularly miss a cycle if they can’t recover their next stroke quickly enough to match the cadence of the double-blade. The double-blade paddler can’t adjust for the stern person because they don’t have eyes in the back of their head, so the stern paddler would be driven crazy by the forced adjustment to their natural cadence.

At least with three single blades, you could make sure the forward paddlers stick to the same side and opposite of the stern paddler, so the middle paddler won’t ever be in the way of the sternman who’s steering strokes are of primary importance.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Three single blades would be tricky enough to get everyone in sync and moving straight ahead. Two singles and a double would be even harder. You’d need a coxswain.

There’s a different cadence between canoe strokes and double-bladed paddling.

Every canoe stroke requires a recovery period, during which you bring the paddle forward and into the starting position for a new stroke. Whereas a double blade makes alternating strokes continuously, without any lapse between strokes, because the recovery on one side happens simultaneously with the opposite stroke.

A stern paddler’s corrective strokes (steering) can take longer than the recovery, so the stroke frequency isn’t likely to sync up with that of a double blade stroke.

Because of the proximity between the stern and middle paddler (albeit depending on boat size), the stern person likely can’t stroke unless it’s during the double-blade paddler’s opposite stoke or the paddles might hit. Especially with a double blade long enough to allow for a beamy boat. That means the stern person will regularly miss a cycle if they can’t recover their next stroke quickly enough to match the natural cadence of the double-blade. The double-blade paddler can’t adjust for the stern person because they don’t have eyes in the back of their head, so the stern paddler would be driven crazy by the forced adjustment to their natural intervals/frequency.

At least with three single blades, you could make sure the forward paddlers stick to the same side, opposite of the stern paddler, so the middle paddler won’t ever be in the way of the stern.

I hadn't thought of that. I think I like the middle guy fishing (or snoozing) idea.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

After the last few posts, the many decades old image of The Three Stooges paddling a canoe just sprang forth in my mind. He,He,He. WooWooWooo....

Did they get that canoe at Dewey, Cheatum and Howe?

Pardon, It's late, the mind wanders and sleep beckons.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

the many decades old image of The Three Stooges paddling a canoe just sprang forth in my mind.

Did they get that canoe at Dewey, Cheatum and Howe?

I miss Car Talk, one of the best radio shows of all time.

 

[PaddleTime]

Got it and appears that we have some practicing to be done in order to achieve harmonious paddling. I do see some reports scattered out there of 3 working well, so it appears to be at least possible.

Found some good reading last night on tumblehome and canoe design history and bubble and shouldered tumblehome and so on, the history, reasoning, and evolution is interesting.

How long would you guys expect an epoxy skin coat Kevlar canoe to last in regards to UV if it were on the water say 2 - 2.5 weeks a year, covered during extended transport, and stored in the dark? I’m talking without using additional UV protectants. Do you think I’d wear it out otherwise before UV became an issue?

 

[Gamma1214]

Personally, I like the idea of a double blade in the middle... I'd bet all 3 paddlers can be soaked in pretty short order (then again, I prefer chaos so...)

Just remember, when you're shouting commands at each other and banging paddles against the hull, that sounds travels very well over water and your conversations can be heard much (much!) further than what you realize.

Wearing out a canoe of any kind is extremely unlikely. Grab something (anything), get on the water and see where it takes you. You are unlikely to end up on the same trajectory from which you started (both literally and figuratively)

 

[SouthernKevlar]

Did they get that canoe at Dewey, Cheatum and Howe?

I miss Car Talk, one of the best radio shows of all time.

Dewey, Cheatum and Howe was also used in a (maybe multiple) Three Stooges skit. It became a running joke between me and my brother.
Thanks for the image.

And a big +1 on Car Talk!

 

[Keeled Over]

PT, Reading back through this thread caused me to wonder, this based on some of your responses.

How much tripping experience do you have? It looks like you have primarily fished from canoes.

Have you actually paddled this 3 up configuration before or is this a new process you are working out?

The trips you are planning will be relatively short, is this correct?

 

[PaddleTime]

By watercraft, zero in a canoe - a night or two using a kayak. Fishing for the day in a heavy canoe, quite a bit. I don’t remember ever having 3 paddling though. New process. Trip length will be day trips with 2 in the boat fishing. Then perhaps 7 nighters or so to your more typical canoe destinations (likely on the move everyday).

 

[carpenter]

I cannot stop being concerned about 3 inexperienced adults in canoe for anything more than a day trip, regardless of the capacity of the canoe.
If you would consider a double-blade paddle in the centre then perhaps a double-blade in a kayak as the additional craft? It is not a canoe, but then it is not a canoe - less of learning curve to cover distance...then you can get into researching an appropriate kayak : ) Or, a solo canoe and develop the skills (more gear, drier, easier to portage...and, a canoe).
Resulting canoe for two would then be more versatile (easier to load, portage, paddle empty or solo), from a wider selection of boats.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Since carrying more than one canoe on the vehicle is an issue, I wonder if you could remove the yoke in that Quetico 18.5, nest something like a 10'6" Hornbeck (upside down) and replace the Quetico yoke with a clamp on. Give the Hornbeck paddler a double and carry all his gear in the Quetico?

 

[memaquay]

My final comment......three in a canoe might work out fine for you after a period of adjustment and practice, and picking appropriate routes. You will know in pretty short order whether or not it will feel safe or risky.

I guess the concern would be, unless you are loaded with the dough, if it doesn't work out, it's quite an expenditure, hence the wise council to try first. I'm sure you could find some sort of a canoe in the area where you live and just give it a quick trial to get a feel for it. The difference between a large 16 foot canoe and an 18.5 without gear won't be earth shattering, and it might give you some real world perspective.

 

[PaddleTime]

@Steve in Idaho had not thought of the nesting idea - thanks. @memaquay thanks, and yes would like to get this purchase right the first time … it is quite an expenditure.

Thanks your comments @carpenter - what about 3 moderately experienced paddlers? We are not looking to pick this up and immediately load it up and traverse the Great Lakes or head to a large-lake access point on a windy day. We would start small to make sure we are good to go and the system works and ramp up from there. I do have some canoe hours from all those past day trips but I need to brush up on skills. If there are specific concerns we can try to be mindful of those. Thanks for your comments.

I see a lot of reports of 3 working in the Souris Quetico 18.5. I don’t know if they are just getting by or what but it sounds like it works well. I’ve been looking at similar canoes in regards to length / width. I’m curious if there is something unique about that design of the SR that makes it work.

Not all of these manufacturers provide capacity to freeboard specs - but just based on the size of the canoes and the weight and looking at manufacturers that do publish this I’m guessing we’d be around 9-10” freeboard - is this generally pretty good? If not, is there a good number to aim for?