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"Ecopoxy" Resin

It seems I recall commercial builders saying that a 50/50 ratio of cloth to resin is ideal (I might not be right on those numbers) and that it's very difficult to achieve with hand layups but quite possible with vacuum bagging and infusion.

If that's the case in a bare composite that hull weighs 25 pounds there would be around 12.5 pounds of resin.

Epoxy appears to weigh about 10 pounds/gallon so that would mean 1.25 gallons of epoxy in that 25 pound hull.

If I had to guess the $600 upcharge from Swift for an Epoxy hull would be a mix of material and labor costs. And all the material might not be the resin as they'll need to add something for UV protection.

As for it being stronger and more robust I'm not convinced it's necessary. At some point you have to look at the real world evidence and decide what's strong enough. Small scale "strength" demonstrations might not apply to real world use situations either. (I haven't watched Swifts marketing video that Glenn linked yet).

When I decided to build a house I learned there were a lot of different ways to do it and that some ways were stronger than others. As soon as I'd decide on one method because of the strength benefits I'd discover another variation that was even stronger. I finally stopped to look around at the construction methods historically used in this area and realized that despite many of them being "weaker" than the methods I was considering that those houses were not falling down every time the wind blew.

Part of me wonders if a large part of the reason for Swift experimenting with epoxy is with an eye to the future. As regulations get tighter it might become cost prohibitive to have facilities that use vinylester. By starting to work epoxy into the process now they can work out the wrinkles on a small scale before ramping up to full production. Their current marketing would have their customers primed for it.

Alan
 
If I had to guess the $600 upcharge from Swift for an Epoxy hull would be a mix of material and labor costs. And all the material might not be the resin as they'll need to add something for UV protection.

As for it being stronger and more robust I'm not convinced it's necessary. At some point you have to look at the real world evidence and decide what's strong enough. Small scale "strength" demonstrations might not apply to real world use situations either. (I haven't watched Swifts marketing video that Glenn linked yet).
The demonstration isn't all that convincing in my opinion; hammering on a flat piece of hull material on a flat surface isn't the type of impact that typically happens while paddling. Maybe the big advantage is that the epoxy resin doesn't scratch as easily? (Added: After rewatching the Swift video it appears that it's the UV coating that resists surface scratching.) We haven't had our Swift Prospector 13 long enough to say for sure, but the epoxy resin does seem pretty tough. I've dragged/paddled it over logs and beaver dams with sharp stobs as well as bumping over shallow gravel and the hull looks practically new. When I ordered the canoe last winter they offered the epoxy resin for a $400 USD upcharge so I went with it because I knew my spouse would sometimes have difficulty keeping the hull from scraping and bumping rocks at difficult put-ins/portages and she's very conscientious about not "hurting" the canoe. With the epoxy and surface coating she doesn't worry so much about damaging the canoe and I don't worry about taking the canoe through sketchier (shallow, rocky) stream reaches.

But we haven't really tested the epoxy layup for durability so cannot say for sure that it is or isn't worth the extra cost. I might have balked if the upcharge was $600 USD; but if it is that much more durable it might be worth it as insurance on a rougher trip.
 
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I think the big advantage is that the epoxy resin doesn't scratch as easily, which seems to be a big concern for many people.

Is epoxy actually the outer surface? Aren't they using something to coat the epoxy for UV?

I'm sure not all epoxies are created equal but I have no problem scratching my epoxy hulls.


Alan
 
Is epoxy actually the outer surface? Aren't they using something to coat the epoxy for UV?

I'm sure not all epoxies are created equal but I have no problem scratching my epoxy hulls.

You're correct, after rewatching the video it appears the UV treatment is the initial coating applied to the mold.

Here's the recap video of Swift's 2024 highlights:

Bill Swift talks about the marine epoxy resin at 5:00 and at 9:00 he talks more about it and pounds on the hull with a rubber mallet. It's closer to a real world test but most of the rocks I've hit were a bit harder than a rubber mallet. Still, it's pretty tough for a very lightweight build. At 8:15 he hammers on a canoe with the regular layup and it's sort of impressive but he does point out that it puts small dents in the foam core. He doesn't mention it when he pounds on the marine epoxy resin build so I'm not sure if there's a difference.

The other company that he mentions is probably Clipper Canoe's expedition Kevlar/Duraflex layup, but they use a real hammer in their test. :)

 
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Can you explain this. Is vinylester somehow more dangerous and subject to regulation than epoxy?

I don't know. Just speculation. It certainly stinks a lot worse than epoxy and while I'm sure epoxy has its hazards as well I usually see people dealing with vinylester wearing more PPE than people working with epoxy.

The catalyst for vinylester will supposedly make you go blind if you get it in your eyes.

If nothing else vinylester will probably need more ventilation and that ventilation probably stinks when it gets outside. I'm sure there are places where that's regulated heavier than others.

Alan
 
The UV treatment is the initial coating applied to the mold.

Here's the recap video of Swift's 2024 highlights:

Bill Swift talks about the marine epoxy resin at 5:00 and at 9:00 he talks more about it and pounds on the hull with a rubber mallet. It's closer to a real world test but most of the rocks I've hit were a bit harder than a rubber mallet. Still, it's pretty tough for a very lightweight build. At 8:15 he hammers on a canoe with the regular layup and it's sort of impressive but he does point out that it puts small dents in the foam core. He doesn't mention it when he pounds on the marine epoxy resin build so I'm not sure if there's a difference.

The other company that he mentions is probably Clipper Canoe's expedition Kevlar/Duraflex layup, but they use a real hammer in their test. :)


Bill should be selling car wax on cable tv. That smacking the sample laying on the flat granite surface is pretty cheesy. I suppose it's convincing to people who aren't tuned into persuasion tricks. And the 303.....OMG. :rolleyes:

I'd want to see him stand that rock on edge and drop a loaded canoe on it before I'd drop an extra $600. Or at least borrow Clipper's steel hammer and give it some real swings.
 
It's been too long since the last time I saw my friend with the Hellman. I need to get in touch with him and see how that boat's holding up.
 
I'd want to see him stand that rock on edge and drop a loaded canoe on it before I'd drop an extra $600. Or at least borrow Clipper's steel hammer and give it some real swings.
To be fair, that Clipper canoe weighs considerably more than the Swift, probably twice the weight for the same size boat. But if you need a canoe that can take some rough use, the Kevlar/Duraflex layup is certainly tough. Mine was. The Swift marine epoxy build seems pretty tough for its weight. I'm not going to drop our canoe onto rocks (if I can help it) but I'm not going to baby it either. The UV/scratch protection also seems to work well but I doubt I'll be using 303 to hide the scratches.
 
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This is epoxy or vinylester?
Epoxy. No vinylester options (that I'm aware of) w/ RAKA.

Incidentally, I messaged Ecopoxy about using it to build strippers (and the possibility of achieving UV protection while skipping the spar varnish). The response:

"Thank you for your interest in EcoPoxy and our products. No, UVPoxy is not formulated for the outdoors, It is a UV-stable product but is formulated for counter and table tops that get exposed to ultraviolet rays through windows. , Many use our BIOPoxy 36 for composite work such as fiberglass or carbon fiber. They then coat it with our GelCoat tinted with one of our many color pigments. I hope that helps."

It wasn't terribly helpful as I can't find "BIOPoxy 36" anywhere on their site & I'm not interested in colored gelcoats (I like to look of wood). I didn't message them back as I'm not really sure I'm invested enough to keep trying.
 
I can't find "BIOPoxy 36" anywhere on their site

I know you feel guilty using Google, but it readily finds many sites with info and selling BioPoxy 36. Here's one:

 
It's been too long since the last time I saw my friend with the Hellman. I need to get in touch with him and see how that boat's holding up.

Friend with Hellman say it's holding up fine and he still loves it. If I'm remembering correctly, he's had it for about five years. He goes down rivers that are often boney. He's a good paddler, so I doubt that it gets many hard hits, but I can't imagine that it remains unscathed.
 
To be fair, that Clipper canoe weighs considerably more than the Swift, probably twice the weight for the same size boat. But if you need a canoe that can take some rough use, the Kevlar/Duraflex layup is certainly tough. Mine was. The Swift marine epoxy build seems pretty tough for its weight. I'm not going to drop our canoe onto rocks (if I can help it) but I'm not going to baby it either. The UV/scratch protection also seems to work well but I doubt I'll be using 303 to hide the scratches.

I suspect that he could do a more convincing demonstration, but he's gonna have to show a little more boldness.

Agree about the Clipper's weight, and its durability. That's a love/hate thing I have going on with my Solitude.
 
Here are the Safety Data Sheets for BioPoxy 36 resin and hardener, showing the Canadian manufacturer and U.S. supplier:

Resin - Main ingredients are phenols and cashew products, and only has a warning for possible allergic skin reaction

Hardener - Main ingredient is formaldehyde, and has numerous hazard, toxicity and cancer warnings

You can find links to the Safety Data Sheets for all the EcoPoxy products HERE.
 
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