Speaking of the H20, it looks like that Outfitter is a shallow V bottom. If that's the case, it's likely to feel nervous at rest when lightly loaded. Not confidence inspiring to the uninitiated.
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Larger Canoe: Tumblehome or Not
- Thread starter PaddleTime
- Start date
I’m seeing a V front and back, possibly transitioning to flat or flatter? Hard to tell, not seeing a full photo. Hadn’t noticed that. Thanks for the heads up. Could always verify.
If your canoe is so wide that you need tumblehome, then it is too wide.
Thanks. At this point, flare is beginning to sound like it might be a better way to go to me considering we’ll be more heavily loaded. But everything I’m looking at is about 36” wide at center. Middle seat behind center not quite that wide and I’ll probably be in it. Right now thinking of shifting left in the seat for example so I can reach the water, putting heavier gear on the right opposite in front of me to hopefully counterbalance. Hoping that will work with no tumblehome while keeping everything balanced.
Trying to balance a dynamic load (you) with a static load (gear) will be met with varying levels of success. The longer the trip, the lower the odds. Kicking a pack to the right when you scoot left is one thing, but preemptively loading things in a an effort to balance will, in my experience, lock you in to a narrow range of positions at best and result in greatly reduced stability at worst. From the tenor of your prior posts, you are already handicapping yourself with too much payload in a boat too small. It may be worthwhile to try and limit as many other potential areas of failure as possible.
One more suggestion, again born of experience: Put your least effective paddler in the middle. If that's you, cool. A strong bow and stern can easily overcome a weak center. A really strong stern can overcome a weak bow and center. A strong bow will have extreme difficulty overcoming a weak stern and center, and the strongest of centers will likely not prevail over the efforts of a weak bow and stern. Note that I mean strong and weak technical skill, not physical prowess.
A CAVEAT TO ALL OF THE ABOVE: many thousands of groups have taken to water in boats grossly overloaded and with skills laughably "inadequate" by the standards of a true enthusiast. By and large, they survive and have an excellent time. Getting out there and just doing it will benefit you and your group more than even all of the excellent advice archived in this forum. I learned a heck of a lot more paddling a busted up Great Candian chopper fiberglass hogbacked hull with a keel and plywood seats for two years that I did in the months of information gathering.
One more suggestion, again born of experience: Put your least effective paddler in the middle. If that's you, cool. A strong bow and stern can easily overcome a weak center. A really strong stern can overcome a weak bow and center. A strong bow will have extreme difficulty overcoming a weak stern and center, and the strongest of centers will likely not prevail over the efforts of a weak bow and stern. Note that I mean strong and weak technical skill, not physical prowess.
A CAVEAT TO ALL OF THE ABOVE: many thousands of groups have taken to water in boats grossly overloaded and with skills laughably "inadequate" by the standards of a true enthusiast. By and large, they survive and have an excellent time. Getting out there and just doing it will benefit you and your group more than even all of the excellent advice archived in this forum. I learned a heck of a lot more paddling a busted up Great Candian chopper fiberglass hogbacked hull with a keel and plywood seats for two years that I did in the months of information gathering.
I could definitely put the smallest and lightest weight paddler in the middle. Thanks for the tips and paddling theory there. I just have a longer reach, so in theory may have to shift less, but the weight that would be shifting would be more. But with bow and stern being more important, food for thought thanks.
Really crunching the numbers I’d say 670lbs would never be exceeded. I do see where this is just a bit over some of the suggested (not maximum, which I understand is not a very useful number) loads that some canoes in this category are putting out there. I’ve been looking at canoes mostly in that 18.5’ range and about 36” wide. I think we’d definitely fit in that size with gear comfortably. On payload I’ve had and seen both smaller and longer canoes being suggested for this type of use…18.5’ seems to be about an average or so. That said, if this would be an inordinate amount of weight for a canoe that size I may need to do some reconsidering. One goal is to go with the shortest canoe that will be comfortable and won’t be overloaded. Just for transport / storage ease, and for a lower weight.
On tumblehome, I think right now lightest person in the middle, offset with gear, tumblehome or not. Then I’m guessing bow / stern would be close enough to the edge of the canoe paddler centered where it wouldn’t be as much of a concern. I’m guessing no tumblehome would be more stable than a traditional tumblehome shape when more heavily loaded.
Really crunching the numbers I’d say 670lbs would never be exceeded. I do see where this is just a bit over some of the suggested (not maximum, which I understand is not a very useful number) loads that some canoes in this category are putting out there. I’ve been looking at canoes mostly in that 18.5’ range and about 36” wide. I think we’d definitely fit in that size with gear comfortably. On payload I’ve had and seen both smaller and longer canoes being suggested for this type of use…18.5’ seems to be about an average or so. That said, if this would be an inordinate amount of weight for a canoe that size I may need to do some reconsidering. One goal is to go with the shortest canoe that will be comfortable and won’t be overloaded. Just for transport / storage ease, and for a lower weight.
On tumblehome, I think right now lightest person in the middle, offset with gear, tumblehome or not. Then I’m guessing bow / stern would be close enough to the edge of the canoe paddler centered where it wouldn’t be as much of a concern. I’m guessing no tumblehome would be more stable than a traditional tumblehome shape when more heavily loaded.
How tall are the three of you? How many packs are you bringing? Are you rabid ultralighters?
Unless you are all under 5'9", less than 160lbs, and are bringing one medium pack each, with one food barrel, you are not going to be "comfy" in anything less than 19' long. Roughing out an outline on the floor is NOTHING like paddling. Three grown men with typical camping gear and food for 7-10 days is going to require a big boat to travel in anything resembling comfort. You can get by with less. "Getting by" negates all the agonizing you are doing over much less consequential matters like bonding material and tumblehome. If I were to ever again engage in such an endeavor, it would be in no less than a Northstar Northwind 20. Which you will have ZERO fun attempting to solo, as you have alluded to as a desired activity.
I went with a tandem and a solo. Recommend you consider the same. Two used boats in great condition are gonna be about the same price or less than a new triple and infinitely more useful.
Unless you are all under 5'9", less than 160lbs, and are bringing one medium pack each, with one food barrel, you are not going to be "comfy" in anything less than 19' long. Roughing out an outline on the floor is NOTHING like paddling. Three grown men with typical camping gear and food for 7-10 days is going to require a big boat to travel in anything resembling comfort. You can get by with less. "Getting by" negates all the agonizing you are doing over much less consequential matters like bonding material and tumblehome. If I were to ever again engage in such an endeavor, it would be in no less than a Northstar Northwind 20. Which you will have ZERO fun attempting to solo, as you have alluded to as a desired activity.
I went with a tandem and a solo. Recommend you consider the same. Two used boats in great condition are gonna be about the same price or less than a new triple and infinitely more useful.
No agonizing on my side just learning or trying to here. 
Pretty darn ultralight. Just over 6’ or less on height, 3 packs. 2 canoes can consider, but not a preferred solution. As far as paddling position goes it does look to me like all 3 paddlers would have plenty of knee room etc. (it’s not like people would have to sit with their packs on their knees or between them and the next thwart or the yoke) - big cargo space in the middle - but I can see how things could get smaller when you’re out there. They usually do.
Wish there were a few more choices out there using that high shouldered tumblehome, seems like a nice balance and a cool design.
Pretty darn ultralight. Just over 6’ or less on height, 3 packs. 2 canoes can consider, but not a preferred solution. As far as paddling position goes it does look to me like all 3 paddlers would have plenty of knee room etc. (it’s not like people would have to sit with their packs on their knees or between them and the next thwart or the yoke) - big cargo space in the middle - but I can see how things could get smaller when you’re out there. They usually do.Wish there were a few more choices out there using that high shouldered tumblehome, seems like a nice balance and a cool design.
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You could always take a really big leap, and build a cedar strip, lol. I stretched out a J. Winters Quetico to 20 feet. It was originally 18.5. It was 36 inches wide asymmetrical in shape and rocker. It was fine for two normal people with a smaller person in the middle with gear for a week. The other 20 foot paddling canoe I built was a tank, 42 inches wide , 16 inches deep at the middle. Could handle three people with room to spare, but weighed in around 100 pounds.
100lbs might be rough. 
I looked into it a while back along with skin on frame and home-built composites. Some (or all really) look like quite the project…maybe someday!
I looked into it a while back along with skin on frame and home-built composites. Some (or all really) look like quite the project…maybe someday!
PaddleTime, as one who has paddled for 72 years, owned 21 different canoes and kayaks, and who has paddled lots of other canoes, let me try to simplify things for you:
Get a Souris River Quetico 18.5.
Why? Because if you are committed to the durability of epoxy construction for whatever reason, there aren't many epoxy-built, three-person canoes on the market. Swift and H20 will make them only for an expensive up-charge, and it's not clear that their 18+ foot models have the stability, capacity or durability of a Souris River Quetico 18.5.
Generally, for seaworthiness in waves, you don't want significant tumblehome in a big tandem canoe, and modern composite models won't have much, if any. Tandem paddlers sit in the ends of the canoe, which are narrow places that don't need tumblehome for vertical paddle placement, and the ends are usually flared or cheeked a bit to deflect waves. In modern times, shouldered tumblehome in the center of a canoe was initially developed so that a centrally-seated solo paddler could radically heel the canoe for pivot turns without shipping water over the gunwales, particularly in whitewater, while maintaing a vertical paddle placement. If you don't paddle like that, centrally shouldered tumblehome will be irrelevant to your paddling technique, even if it is available in a tandem canoe, in addition to detracting from seaworthiness.
I strongly recommend that you rent that Souris River Quetico 18.5 from an outfitter for your first trip. A long three-person canoe is a highly niche canoe and not a good long-term investment. Other than families with kids or long canoe racing teams (or motorized canoes), I'm not sure I've ever seen three adults paddling in one canoe on a wilderness trip. Personally, it would be anathema to me from every perspective—comfort, gear storage, trim, paddling coordination technique, safety, and autonomous freedom.
Moreover, you say you don't live in canoe country and are talking about driving thousands of miles for your initial canoe trip. Given those circumstances, I think it's highly unlikely that three adults will ever be able to organize their schedules, times, interests and motivations to undertake such long journeys to be cramped into one canoe . . . more than once. Hence, if you buy such an expensive beast rather than rent it, you may end up taking only one three-person trip in it your entire life. In such a case, you will end up owning a huge and very expensive canoe that most paddlers would find too awkward to solo and that may be hard to re-sell in non-canoe country.
Finally, I join all the others who have been suggesting that you would be more informatively served at this point by hands-on experience rather than further spec-scrolling. If you can beg, borrow, rent or otherwise test paddle some canoes—any canoes, with any amount of people in them—you can quickly "feel" what hull characteristics and specs are actually important to you. Warning: Your feelings and opinions will change over time if you pursue canoeing as a serious sport and as life circumstances change.
Get a Souris River Quetico 18.5.
Why? Because if you are committed to the durability of epoxy construction for whatever reason, there aren't many epoxy-built, three-person canoes on the market. Swift and H20 will make them only for an expensive up-charge, and it's not clear that their 18+ foot models have the stability, capacity or durability of a Souris River Quetico 18.5.
Generally, for seaworthiness in waves, you don't want significant tumblehome in a big tandem canoe, and modern composite models won't have much, if any. Tandem paddlers sit in the ends of the canoe, which are narrow places that don't need tumblehome for vertical paddle placement, and the ends are usually flared or cheeked a bit to deflect waves. In modern times, shouldered tumblehome in the center of a canoe was initially developed so that a centrally-seated solo paddler could radically heel the canoe for pivot turns without shipping water over the gunwales, particularly in whitewater, while maintaing a vertical paddle placement. If you don't paddle like that, centrally shouldered tumblehome will be irrelevant to your paddling technique, even if it is available in a tandem canoe, in addition to detracting from seaworthiness.
I strongly recommend that you rent that Souris River Quetico 18.5 from an outfitter for your first trip. A long three-person canoe is a highly niche canoe and not a good long-term investment. Other than families with kids or long canoe racing teams (or motorized canoes), I'm not sure I've ever seen three adults paddling in one canoe on a wilderness trip. Personally, it would be anathema to me from every perspective—comfort, gear storage, trim, paddling coordination technique, safety, and autonomous freedom.
Moreover, you say you don't live in canoe country and are talking about driving thousands of miles for your initial canoe trip. Given those circumstances, I think it's highly unlikely that three adults will ever be able to organize their schedules, times, interests and motivations to undertake such long journeys to be cramped into one canoe . . . more than once. Hence, if you buy such an expensive beast rather than rent it, you may end up taking only one three-person trip in it your entire life. In such a case, you will end up owning a huge and very expensive canoe that most paddlers would find too awkward to solo and that may be hard to re-sell in non-canoe country.
Finally, I join all the others who have been suggesting that you would be more informatively served at this point by hands-on experience rather than further spec-scrolling. If you can beg, borrow, rent or otherwise test paddle some canoes—any canoes, with any amount of people in them—you can quickly "feel" what hull characteristics and specs are actually important to you. Warning: Your feelings and opinions will change over time if you pursue canoeing as a serious sport and as life circumstances change.
Another consideration:
Although I mostly canoe solo, having two canoes on an expedition gives a MUCH greater safety factor. Imagine being on a large lake in a three person canoe and swamping (for whatever reason). How do you plan to self rescue? With two canoes it is much easier to right the canoe and reload gear. You can do this with a tandem canoe and a solo, or even better, two tandem canoes. It may involve finding a fourth paddler, hopefully experienced, to round out a crew but it would be better than being trapped on an island in the middle of a wilderness trip after being dunked in potentially very cold water with your gear on the lake bottom or far shore.
Just something to think about.
Although I mostly canoe solo, having two canoes on an expedition gives a MUCH greater safety factor. Imagine being on a large lake in a three person canoe and swamping (for whatever reason). How do you plan to self rescue? With two canoes it is much easier to right the canoe and reload gear. You can do this with a tandem canoe and a solo, or even better, two tandem canoes. It may involve finding a fourth paddler, hopefully experienced, to round out a crew but it would be better than being trapped on an island in the middle of a wilderness trip after being dunked in potentially very cold water with your gear on the lake bottom or far shore.
Just something to think about.
@SouthernKevlar that is a good point - I do like redundancy. Thanks. I’ll think on that.
@Glenn MacGrady thanks for breaking down tumblehome further for me there, much appreciated. All makes sense. Thank you. Yes, I’ve looked at the Quetico 18.5 quite a bit - seems to be the accepted standard for canoes for this purpose and looking at hopefully comparable boats that are close. I’m leaning full foam core floor rather than ribs - pros and cons just like everything else I know. I’ll give it some more thought though on the SR. On the group dynamics I didn’t elaborate previously but we are already outdoor people / family and already do these types of things all the time - only thing really changing would be the addition of the canoe (and all that goes with that). There’s a chance one of us might not like it, but I’d say chances on that are quite low.
Good thoughts on getting out and test paddling some canoes. Nice composites like this, may be tough. I’ve paddled and fished from 3 in the past, quite often but has been quite some time. No tripping though, Just in a kayak and limited there. I hated the fiberglass canoe - couldn’t get near it without itching like crazy. The Royalex was pretty, but heavy and would not track. That could have been on me in regards to technique and/or not enough weight. The aluminum - heavy, and would downright burn you on a sunny day. And loud. All things I’m looking to avoid with this purchase.
@Glenn MacGrady thanks for breaking down tumblehome further for me there, much appreciated. All makes sense. Thank you. Yes, I’ve looked at the Quetico 18.5 quite a bit - seems to be the accepted standard for canoes for this purpose and looking at hopefully comparable boats that are close. I’m leaning full foam core floor rather than ribs - pros and cons just like everything else I know. I’ll give it some more thought though on the SR. On the group dynamics I didn’t elaborate previously but we are already outdoor people / family and already do these types of things all the time - only thing really changing would be the addition of the canoe (and all that goes with that). There’s a chance one of us might not like it, but I’d say chances on that are quite low.
Good thoughts on getting out and test paddling some canoes. Nice composites like this, may be tough. I’ve paddled and fished from 3 in the past, quite often but has been quite some time. No tripping though, Just in a kayak and limited there. I hated the fiberglass canoe - couldn’t get near it without itching like crazy. The Royalex was pretty, but heavy and would not track. That could have been on me in regards to technique and/or not enough weight. The aluminum - heavy, and would downright burn you on a sunny day. And loud. All things I’m looking to avoid with this purchase.
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Hellman Canoes out of Nelson BC uses epoxy, and has a boat worth considering, but has ribs: "The Cruiser is a high volume tripping canoe built for packing large payloads. It is fast, stable and designed to hold up to 3 or 4 people plus gear. The Cruiser is a safe and accommodating canoe for families, and will comfortably fit two paddlers, kids, dogs, and 4 barrels and camping gear. The dramatically flared deep bow allows it to smash through waves and remain dry. The design and volume of this canoe make it an excellent choice for long wilderness trips and grade 1 or 2 river trips with the family." https://hellmancanoes.com/the-cruiser/
Also, there's the Wenonah Seneca (19'4") that comes with three seats, and is much wider (39.5 vs 34"). They can be found used from outfitters (e.g. https://moosetrackadventures.com/boundary-waters-outfitter/canoes-gear-for-sale/). Foam core, but not epoxy.
Also, there's the Wenonah Seneca (19'4") that comes with three seats, and is much wider (39.5 vs 34"). They can be found used from outfitters (e.g. https://moosetrackadventures.com/boundary-waters-outfitter/canoes-gear-for-sale/). Foam core, but not epoxy.
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What canoe has a full foam core, no foam ribs, and is made entirely of pure epoxy resin? I'm not familiar with all the current canoes and am genuinely curious.
Hellman uses something they call "Ecopoxy" resin, which is plant-based and is supposedly stronger than polymer-based regular epoxy resin. Is this just marketing . . . real or Memorex . . . who knows?
Canoe Constructions - HELLMAN CANOE AND KAYAK
Hellman canoes are built to provide a lifetime of fun and adventure. Each canoe is custom built in the Kootenays to include your special requests, with a workmanship guarantee. Most Hellman Canoes can be built in either Duralite, Kevlar®, or Duratuff. A few models have restrictions due to...
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A friend of mine has a Hellman Scout. Seems like a very robust layup, and fairly light.
@PaddleTime - I really think you should strongly consider Glenn's advice.
When I did the Boundary Waters trip with my nephew (both of us in the 160-170 lb range) that Quetico was pretty full. I wouldn't have wanted a third adult in there, and that's with a week's worth of gear for two. There were four of us in two canoes, but if we had three (which will likely be the case if I get to do a trip with him again) I would have been in a solo canoe.
You said you're not in canoe country. Are you anywhere near me?
When I did the Boundary Waters trip with my nephew (both of us in the 160-170 lb range) that Quetico was pretty full. I wouldn't have wanted a third adult in there, and that's with a week's worth of gear for two. There were four of us in two canoes, but if we had three (which will likely be the case if I get to do a trip with him again) I would have been in a solo canoe.
You said you're not in canoe country. Are you anywhere near me?
Hey Glenn, I was referencing just the floor (combined with epoxy) - I think the ones I’ve been able to find in the 18.5’ category (Nighthawk Pegasus with floor option, H2O Outfitter & Prospector with option, Swift Keewaydin w/ epoxy option, Savage River Voyageur) would still have side ribs but with the solid floor.
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