Jack's - Morris - Special

[stripperguy]

I built my first 5 or 6 strippers using polyester resin. It does not bond well to wood, and is a hassle to get a tack free surface.
Beyond that, polyester does not like to stick to epoxy resin, so if you were thinking to do the wet out in epoxy and covering coats in polyester, don't bother.

 

[Mihun09]

Road trip to the wood store was mostly for naught. Sure, they have Honduran Mahogany, in fact a couple nice boards and only $27.99 a BF. The one piece is a beaut at 11 1/2" wide, a full 1" thickness and 11 feet long. $348 with taxes for one board. I could of course get all rails and deck wood out of it as well as seat rails, but I couldn't pull the trigger on it just for the stripper. The other board that would work is also 11 feet long, 9" wide and 13/16" thickness, $260 for that one. So, there will be no HM on this build but I may go cherry if I can find any that isn't already milled to under 3/4" thickness. Regardless, there will be scarf joints on all rails, but such is life with what we can get. I was also thinking Douglas Fir, stained mahogany, since I know it will bend, I can get enough length, and Canadian Canoe Co. (aka Chestnut) did use it for inwales back in the 30's.

That expensive chunk of HM will most likely get purchased to be used on the original Morris for inwales when the time comes. I know the 9" board has been in the store since September so it should be there awhile yet.

 

[memaquay]

Look for some local birch. I've used it a lot for gunwales and trim. It will stain up nice, and weight to strength ratio is very good. Also, if you can find some one with a local sawmill who has some, very cheap!

 

[Jim Dodd]

Cherry is pretty, but for my hulls that ride on a hard wood rack, and get abused, Ash is my choice. With the Emerald Ash Borer, I'm getting Ash at near give away prices. This maybe due to my location though .

Jim

 

[Mihun09]

I'm not a big fan of Ash, I used it on the first stripper because we didn't know of anything else at the time, but it won't take a stain and is heavy. On the plus side it bends really well. I have used Cherry on w/c boats and like it, so we will just keep looking and see what comes up. Out this way Birch is as heavy as Ash.

 

[Mihun09]

This delay brought to you by... back ordered pigment. I ordered December 18th, they debited my Credit Card on the 21st and at no point did they contact me with shipping details or anything, so last night I e-mailed asking about the status and today I got back that the 8oz white I ordered is back ordered 4 weeks. Now, being a somewhat normal person, I would have thought they would have said that 2 weeks ago to give me options, but apparently that isn't part of customer service for them. So, I asked if they had 6 1oz containers to send instead but won't know until tomorrow night if they do. 6oz should give me enough. Oh well.

 

[Alan Gage]

Booooo. Delays inflicted by other people suck.

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

Ok, so they are sending me 8, 1oz containers for the same price as the 8oz I originally ordered ($20 difference +/-). Likely see it next week but I may go ahead and glass and first fill coat this weekend then just need to scuff to do the other fill coats once the pigment arrives. West system says to not pigment until the 2nd fill coat.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Just a thought about fill coats. If you start your first fill coat, wait an hour or so while the first coat is still quit tacky, that is the time to start the next fill coat. The benefit is the second coat will stick, and not run. No sanding between fill coats either.
If you wait until the first coat is dry, you will need to sand, or your resin, the next coat, stands a good chance of running on you. Sanding the first fill coat will get you into sanding the weave of the cloth right away. Not good.

Just trying to save you time and trouble. I've gotten up in the middle of the night on nearly all my hulls, to apply fill coats in this manner, and have never regretted it !

Jim

 

[Mihun09]

Just a thought about fill coats. If you start your first fill coat, wait an hour or so while the first coat is still quit tacky, that is the time to start the next fill coat. The benefit is the second coat will stick, and not run. No sanding between fill coats either.
If you wait until the first coat is dry, you will need to sand, or your resin, the next coat, stands a good chance of running on you. Sanding the first fill coat will get you into sanding the weave of the cloth right away. Not good.

Just trying to save you time and trouble. I've gotten up in the middle of the night on nearly all my hulls, to apply fill coats in this manner, and have never regretted it !

Jim

Yep, I am aware that is the preferred method, although I ain't getting up in the middle of the night to put on fill coats. I'll find out today when to expect the pigment but it has already been over two weeks I have been ready to glass. Just sayin...

 

[memaquay]

I've brought this up before....System Three epoxies have a 72 hour window for recoats. The previous coat can completely harden before the next re-application. I suspect most epoxies are the same. The window is reportedly so that each coat can achieve a chemical bond, as opposed to a mechanical. In my experience, runs are a result of using too much epoxy, or rushing through the recoats. When I use rollers with thin recoats, I seldom have runs. If I load up a paint brush, I will have lots of runs, cause I'm a sloppy painter. Of course, the prevention of runs starts with the wet out coat, and consistent squeegy-ing.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I've brought this up before....System Three epoxies have a 72 hour window for recoats. The previous coat can completely harden before the next re-application. I suspect most epoxies are the same. The window is reportedly so that each coat can achieve a chemical bond, as opposed to a mechanical. In my experience, runs are a result of using too much epoxy, or rushing through the recoats. When I use rollers with thin recoats, I seldom have runs. If I load up a paint brush, I will have lots of runs, cause I'm a sloppy painter. Of course, the prevention of runs starts with the wet out coat, and consistent squeegy-ing.

System three is great epoxy, especially the Clear Coat. I used it for years, and shared their 15 gallon kits with another local builder. It really saved.

It was through a System Three tech, that I learned the before mentioned trick.

Clear Coat is strong, and thin. It wets out great, but takes more fill coats.

I'm still looking for that "One coat does all epoxy !" The Peel Ply does help, but it is difficult for me to get the wrinkles out it.
I just did a test, that I'm going to say more about in another post, but here is a pic.

It would take at least 2 more fill coats to do what the Peel Ply has done on the left, with just one wet out coat.

Jim

 

[memaquay]

I used the System Three Silver Tip a couple of times. Although a tad thick for wet out, I would say it is the best all around epoxy I have used. I'm gonna watch you guys use peel ply a bit more before I jump on board.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I used the System Three Silver Tip a couple of times. Although a tad thick for wet out, I would say it is the best all around epoxy I have used. I'm gonna watch you guys use peel ply a bit more before I jump on board.

I'm still cautious about the Peel Ply too ! It might be more about the resin I was using, and the tumblehome of the hull. I'm hoping I can get it to work someday!
Jim

 

[Mihun09]

Pigment is on it's way, delivery for Monday apparently but it May show up Friday. It is coming by UPS which should be interesting since I'm not sure they deliver to Canada Post. Too bad Canada Post is not open on Saturdays.

Jim, is the purpose of the peel ply to reduce fill coats to one? and, is it a regular fill coat or a heavy one? For up our way I doubt a single fill coat would be sufficient to keep the rock scratches (gouges) from getting into the cloth. The more protection the better really. Will the cost of the peel ply be less than the cost of the resin saved? A couple more coats of resin will only add a few ounces of weight so it isn't like you are trying to save weight are you?

I may still go ahead and do the wet out Friday, I can wait until the post office is almost closing and still get it done and it is supposed to go deep freeze on Saturday here so Friday will be the easiest to keep the shop warm.

 

[Alan Gage]

I may still go ahead and do the wet out Friday, I can wait until the post office is almost closing and still get it done and it is supposed to go deep freeze on Saturday here so Friday will be the easiest to keep the shop warm.

Same here. Been watching the weather all week and planning my work accordingly. Lots of epoxying getting done in the shop this week. Probably none next week with the cold temps. Hope your pigment shows up early. Looking forward to seeing the fiberglass on this one.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

Jim, is the purpose of the peel ply to reduce fill coats to one? and, is it a regular fill coat or a heavy one? For up our way I doubt a single fill coat would be sufficient to keep the rock scratches (gouges) from getting into the cloth. The more protection the better really. Will the cost of the peel ply be less than the cost of the resin saved? A couple more coats of resin will only add a few ounces of weight so it isn't like you are trying to save weight are you?

.

I believe that the Peel Ply will reduce fill coats. On this sample the cloth was just wetted out, no fill coats.
The cost of the Peel Ply, something you throw away when you are done, does seem high to me, $8.00 / yard. But I believe if done correctly, it will save two fill coats. Two fill coats on my Nokomis, equals 48 liquid ounces, guessing that to be around 4lbs. I think everybody would like to lighten their canoe by 4 lbs without sacrificing any strength.
I could get by with about 5yds of Peel Ply, if I cut carefully, for around $40.
These are ball park figures, but to save 4 lbs, would cost me around $10 a pound.

Again I haven't achieved a workable relationship with Peel Ply yet. Still working on it !

Good Luck Friday !

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

Jim, is the purpose of the peel ply to reduce fill coats to one? and, is it a regular fill coat or a heavy one?....Will the cost of the peel ply be less than the cost of the resin saved? A couple more coats of resin will only add a few ounces of weight so it isn't like you are trying to save weight are you?

For me I'm trying to reduce the work of adding fill coats and saving weight. Although I haven't really kept track I'd guess each fill coat adds about 12 oz. So the normal 3 fill coats would be a little over 2lbs.

If the peel ply is done right the weave of the cloth should pretty much be filled during the wetout without using much more resin than you'd normally use wetting out the fiberglass. Once removed the peel ply leaves a slight texture which can many times be covered with one fill coat.

So after the wetout coat with peel ply the glass could be buried to the same extent as 3 fill coats done normally. One fill coat to cover the weave of the peel ply would be like 4 regular fill coats. Or at least that's how I figure it in my head. I haven't measured the laminate thicknesses for a comparison.

But obviously from the experiences I've posted on here I haven't achieved that level of perfection yet; although my carbon/kevlar GP was pretty darn good after pulling the peel ply. Whether or not it's worth it in terms of resin/weight savings vs. the expense of the cloth is yet to be seen. I won't know for myself until I've done a few more and either get it figured out or give up.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Mihun said:

For up our way I doubt a single fill coat would be sufficient to keep the rock scratches (gouges) from getting into the cloth. The more protection the better really.

Alan said:

So after the wetout coat with peel ply the glass could be buried to the same extent as 3 fill coats done normally. One fill coat to cover the weave of the peel ply would be like 4 regular fill coats. Or at least that's how I figure it in my head.

Thought about this more after I posted last night and I think I was incorrect. Using 3 or 4 coats to fill the weave normally as opposed to 1 or 2 fill coats when using peel ply would certainly end up with a thicker layer of epoxy. I guess that should have been obvious because all that extra epoxy that's rolled on during normal fill coats certainly is not sanded back off when smoothing the finish*. And recalling past sanding experiences after using peel ply it does seem that you start cutting into the cloth sooner.

*I once weighed a tandem before and after sanding the outside smooth after the fill coats. I removed 8oz. of resin.

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

Pigment should be in Monday, maybe but I won't be able to get to fill coats until Friday, so I'll be roughing it up a bit to get some adhesion. Supposed to warm up a bit by then, -15C on Thursday.

Glassing went alright, I was nervous again but it worked. Glass went down really smooth, no wrinkle issues whatsoever. First fill coat is on as well. The slow hardener I used is almost crystal clear as you can see. The double layer took a fair bit to totally wet out and there are a few bubbles likely between the two layers but I'm not concerned with them at all. Should have been watching the resin, not season 3 of Breaking Bad.