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Carbon Copy Kite

You are a busy guy SG! Probably been done before but when I want to minimize the sanding damage I have used a double layer of painters tape on the boat covering the section I don't want sanded. Double layer or more, I have sand through the single layer before! The double let's me see that I need to slow the heck down and pay attention before it's too late! As you said already, at least it's not in an area that is "finished" so the cleanup won't be too bad. Looking good!

Jason
 
That's going to be a beautiful boat!
I'm looking forward to seeing some good pictures when you finish!
 
Wow ! You put that big of a hole in your boat hand sanding ? You are aggrssive !

Like how you shaped the gunnels ! Sounds like a good plan using the CF bias tape !

I too am anxious to see this Black Beauty !!

Jim
 
Finally getting around to doing the gunnels...
I just yesterday wetted out one gunnel, it seemed to go much easier than when I did the red Kite. Honestly, I was sort of avoiding it, I had time in the evenings this past week.
I had wrapped the gunnel with 4" wide bias woven carbon fiber tape from Soller, I think it's the 13.5 oz stuff. Fairly thick, but very compliant. I used a total of 12 oz of resin, in two batches. Almost all of the wet out was with a 3" roller, except for the very ends, where space is at a premium. I wrapped the carbon as far around the second side as possible. Tomorrow, I'll trim the stray fibers and wrap the other gunnel.
Oh, and I weighed the hull just before I added the carbon, so it's shell plus foam gunnels, 23.5 lbs and counting.

The carbon fiber apparently is uncomfortable in front of the camera, I can't seem to get a good photo, especially when the resin is still wet.
Here's how it looks as of last night:

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In this last photo, you can see how nicely the carbon conformed to the foam and the hull. No problems to get it to tuck in tightly.

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Great bit of info ! I know Alan was happy with how the bias woven carbon handled.

That is light ! It may turn into a KITE if the wind picks up !
The Light Kite ! I like that !

What are you going to do for a seat ?

Jim
 
Do you think you can keep the weight under 30#?
What was the final weight on the red kite?
 
This morning, I cleaned up the first side overlap, and rolled out the carbon for the second side. Wet out mostly with a roller, same as the other side.
First side cured nicely, and is really tucked in well all along both inside and out.

Rolling out the 4" carbon tape

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Smoothing/tucking the dry tape into place. I needed to wiggle the tape around to get as uniform of an overlap as possible.

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Rolling on the resin was much easier once I grabbed a pair of dollar store reading glasses!!

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Second side done, tonight (or tomorrow) I'll trim the stray fibers and possibly add a little more carbon at the gunnel stem overhang. And maybe a small piece where the two gunnels meet on the inside.
I've run out of carbon sleeving to make the thwarts, fortunately my S-I-L has a bunch laying around.

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Do you think you can keep the weight under 30#?
What was the final weight on the red kite?

Last I weighed this one, I had the foam gunnels epoxied in place, but no carbon yet. It was 23.5 lbs. I was hoping to keep the complete boat at or under 25 lbs, but that seems unlikely now. I'll weigh the boat again later today after the second side gunnel has firmed up. All that's left is 3 thwarts, 2 seat pedestals and a carbon fiber (courtesy of Alan) seat.
The stripped version, the red Kite, weighs 39 lbs. Not bad for such a rugged build, but I don't necessarily need that ruggedness when I'm paddling flatter waters. I definitely don't need it when the boats on my back between ponds!!
 
I guess I should have calculated more and spoke less...
Just weighed the hull with both gunnels done, I hang my head in shame.

Another 3.5 lbs just for the carbon and resin.
dang!
 
I guess I should have calculated more and spoke less...
Just weighed the hull with both gunnels done, I hang my head in shame.

Another 3.5 lbs just for the carbon and resin.
dang!

I feel your pain. It's ridiculous how it just keeps adding up. With a regular stripper for comparison the first 10 pounds is pretty easy to trim off but after that each pounds starts getting harder and more expensive.

Alan
 
So, for a home gamer, to build a sub 30lb canoe, the best way to lighten a boat would be?

Build a much smaller boat?

SG, if my math is right, you are up to 27lbs? Plus two seats and a few thwarts? dang is right! Wait, two seats? This will be your solo canoe correct?

I hate to ask but I have to...

Would you spend the money on C.F. again? Or settle for the extra 7 to 10 pounds on a stripper? I know 10lbs is A LOT when you are carrying it for a few miles.

Jason

Edit to add: sorry SG, I had to go back to the beginning, the carbon was on sale for cheaper than cedar for a little weight savings but presumably a lot of extra strength. Like Alan already said, those last few pounds come at great expense! But dang, being carbon fiber, you just automatically expect it to be a miraculous 25lb feather boat that could rest on one shoulder un-noticed during a portage!
 
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Alan,
You know the story as well as any of us that are in the game...

Jason,
Wow, loaded questions there.
Easy answers first. Yeah, just one seat, three thwarts, and two seat pedestals to add.
For the gunnels, if I had done my homework, I wouldn't have been so surprised. The 30 feet of carbon fiber tape alone was nearly a pound, then a total of 30 oz of resin. I verified the numbers after the fact, and it gets worse...I haven't added any covering coats of resin on the gunnels yet!

Would I spend the money for carbon fiber again? Uhmm, maybe. I like the strength and modulus, but I don't care for the non conformance and the subtle wet out visuals. The carbon cloth was OK as far as resin absorption, but the bias woven tape at 13.5 oz/sq yd is thick, thick, thick, .028". This, in turn, requires much resin, and we know the results of that set of parameters.

I don't know if you were joking before, but part of the answer is, yes, build a smaller boat. This Kite has much volume, and it doesn't come free.

But for a given hull, what to do to minimize weight and yet retain adequate strength?? (don't discount my use of the word adequate, it's important)
I would need to model and build a bunch of test laminates to decide upon my optimum lamination schedule. This might not be your optimum though. Body weight, gear weight, type of water, type of use, tolerance for damage, all effect each person's optimum lamination schedule for a particular hull. We can't separate geometry from the equation, it has too strong of an effect on the stiffness.

So without thorough modeling and test panels, I am leaning toward 1-1/2 layers of 6 oz, 1/4" and 1/8" Divinycell foam, and another 1-1/2 layers of 6 oz glass.
While the carbon fiber has great strength and modulus, this can be substituted with a thicker beam section.

Think about it this way:
Epoxy resin as an average of 78 lbs/cu ft. Enough resin to saturate multiple layers of carbon and/or kevlar ends up being quite a penalty. Why not use a 5 lbs/cu ft core, and back off on the excessive layers and required resin? As long as that core doesn't fail in shear you're OK.
Which then brings me to another semi-conclusion. Build a composite hull from the outside in, in a female pattern, using foam, glass and epoxy only.
Isn't this how we build strippers? But just swap out the 22 lbs/cu ft cedar for the 5 lbs/cu ft foam, you'll have virtually the same hull stiffness.

With all that said, I will still build with cedar, after all, I am stripperguy! I love the grain, the colors, the smells...
 
I know I am not very experienced in this type of build, but I have a couple things that I'm assuming.
1: more fabric means more resin consumption
2: more resin means more weight
3: foam core adds rigidity but also creates more potential for failure during a collision with unseen hard object
4: vacuum bagging or infusion would optimize resin consumption but also adds cost
5: hand laid composite hulls will weigh more than an identical layup using vacuum
If I'm totally off base on these please tell me so. I'm trying to figure this whole process out as well!
I finally decided to pull the plug on my composite build for this year. Definitely will attempt one next winter.

I will finish by saying that resin is the heaviest material used for these builds, so it would seem preferable to use the minimum amount of fabric possible to achieve the light weight that we all want. The compromise being the ultimate strength of the hull when using fewer layers.
 
"I don't know if you were joking before, but part of the answer is, yes, build a smaller boat. This Kite has much volume, and it doesn't come free."

Sort of a joke but not really.

At 230lbs, I alone am heavier than your whole kit and you included! Stinking candy bars! I have tried to go with the smaller boat but don't like it at all. It's either too short and slow or too skinny and "responsive" for fishing. I learned my lesson on that after I built the geo boats "arrow 14" it was light as heck but after I carried it and all of my gear up that hill onto trout lake (starting from Lows lower dam) I set sail only to realize that i paid for my light weight with capacity. I only had 2" of free board! I didn't even have a tent or beer!

Ultimately, I guess I'm just gonna have to carry the extra weight of a 16' canoe! I was really hoping that you found that magic formula that was obtainable in a guys garage without all the fancy and expensive equipment!

I absolutely enjoy yours and Alan's, and all the other builds that you guys post here! Hopefully by the time I am ready to pull the trigger you guys are still around to share and offer more advice! Thanks for taking the time to write everything up and post it here.

Now a question.... you talked about the divinicell, would you cut it into strips and lay it out on forms like cedar, Then glass it? That sounds pretty interesting.

Edit to add: I did test paddle that arrow before the trip, but, I underestimated how much gear I actually took with me! Another lesson learned!

Jason
 
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Jason,
Back in post #76, Muskrat provided this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwABZT2pIn8&feature=youtu.be

I think that shows the method pretty well.I think I would build in a similar fashion next time.

As far as the holy grail, I did build a DY Special in wood strip. That's a 16'8" solo speedster. I used 5/32" straight edged strips, and 1-1/2 layers of 3.25 oz glass in and out, mahogany trim, minimal cap gunnels, stripped decks and bulkheads. That boat was 32 lbs, even though it was fairly long, it was narrow, with a low sheer. Overall, there wasn't much hull. Replacing just the cedar with foam in a build like that could have saved 6 to 8 lbs...

Are you familiar with guideboat designs? At your body and gear weight and desired usage, a shorter guideboat, built as a modern composite, could be just the ticket for you.
 
Thanks SG, I have rowed a guide boat before. Cedar stripped made by a friend of the family many years ago. He made it heavy duty and fancy, brass stem bands and all. I much prefer paddling forward and fishing from a canoe! When I get back to Wi-Fi I'll check out that you tube link. Thanks!
 
Lots of great Info here. S. G. how did the 5/32 strips work out for you on your DY speedster. Like everyone chasing a lighter boat I'm thinking ahead to my next boat. A 14' to 15' thin stripped stripper with a carbon fiber or carbon kevlar layer and two layers of 4 OZ S glass. Do you think narrowing the strips down to 5/8" wide would make it easier to smooth out, without removing too much of the little wood that there is to start with?
 
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I ran a build thread on another forum:

http://adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=8273&highlight=special

The 5/32 strips were fine. My strips were actually 7/8" wide (cedar was 1S) and my hull had very smooth lines after sanding. And BTW, that DY had some very radical tumblehome. I loaned that boat out quite a bit after it was no longer my primary boat, and it suffered some abuse from much heavier paddlers than me (I'm 146 Lbs). By the time I sold it, it developed a split on the inside along the keel line, about 30 inches long. Patched and sold to a 190 lb dude, never a problem again. Depending on your intended usage, carbon or kevlar could be overkill. 1-1/2 layers in and out of 4 oz glass could be adequate.
 
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