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Make sense!! I like that, I do some thing like that to...
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Happy World Wildlife Conservation Day! 🦬🐅🦄
Solo Tripping Paddles
- Thread starter Peach Canoe
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Make sense!! I like that, I do some thing like that to...
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Yellowcanoe, I asked Mike Yee about this in an email, and he agrees with you. While he accepts my premise for sizing the moving water shaft, he thinks it would yield a paddle slightly too long too. For sizing the shaft from an on-side duffeck, he suggested gauging from the chin (perhaps 2 or 3 inches shorter than from the forehead).
I should qualify that when gauging the shaft length from the centre of my forehead with the on-side duffek, I am leaning into it with my control forearm approximately parallel to the water.
Mikey also said that whitewater paddles have been getting shorter in general, and if you have shoulder issues-- then probably even shorter.
I should qualify that when gauging the shaft length from the centre of my forehead with the on-side duffek, I am leaning into it with my control forearm approximately parallel to the water.
Mikey also said that whitewater paddles have been getting shorter in general, and if you have shoulder issues-- then probably even shorter.
I think ( I could be wrong) that you go back a few years. I am interested in your designs and appreciate what you write. I remember my first whitewater training where we were taught to have that grip for a duffek held high. I continued to do that and at my first FreeStyle lesson ( actually it was basic solo canoeing) with Mark Molina he had some quick corrective advice for me. The paddlers box in front of the body plane was emphasized in 1996.
I'm sorry for getting things a little mixed up. That old Detroit axle with the paddle out three feet from the boat has no use now, but its not a river move either. Some things done in FreeStyle have to be modified for " when you hit the rock"The top hand just got moved down and you are right the blade on moving water is planted forward. Chicken wings be dammed, its safer in whitewater to do the duffek with elbows bent for shock absorbers to avoid giving one self a bloody nose.
Used to be that rocks with duffek grips held high resulted in top hands being back of the body plane until the ER was reached.
I appreciate your posts and its fun to see Mikey still around
I'm sorry for getting things a little mixed up. That old Detroit axle with the paddle out three feet from the boat has no use now, but its not a river move either. Some things done in FreeStyle have to be modified for " when you hit the rock"The top hand just got moved down and you are right the blade on moving water is planted forward. Chicken wings be dammed, its safer in whitewater to do the duffek with elbows bent for shock absorbers to avoid giving one self a bloody nose.
Used to be that rocks with duffek grips held high resulted in top hands being back of the body plane until the ER was reached.
I appreciate your posts and its fun to see Mikey still around
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From what I notice, there was a trend of short paddle length for ww that was of short live, people seems to go back to "longer" paddles more and more, where a few years a go(8-9), people would paddle a lot with 56-58 paddles ( and yes this is LOA since most ww paddle have a 8x19 blades, you can compare them together...) and now the same paddlers are using paddles in the 58-60inches. Of course if you have sensitive shoulders, a shorter paddle does help, so does a paddle with a bit more flex in the shaft.
I'm 6', 200lbs with a short torso, I use a 56" Bending Branches Expedition Plus and always carry a similar size/shape Mohawk for backup. I sized my paddle right off the Bending Branches size chart and it works good for me. I'd like to try a knife edged, carbon LW but I shudder at the abuse it would get in our water and what little flat water I do doesn't seem to warrant another paddle. I have to say I'm not really much of a paddle connoisseur.
I've tried longer paddles, but I'm generally a 'in the box' paddler and they feel like they are getting in the way of themselves. When I had a Wenonah Spirit II and was tripping it (BWCA/Quietico) and paddling Wisconsin rivers with the family I used a longer paddle because sometimes I would stand and used a bent the rest of the time. When I started whitewater boating in a Dagger Genesis my paddle shortened up and my technique tightened up with some instruction. Swimming a lot is good motivation LOL
The only canoe I have now is the Supernova and I basically paddle it like the Genesis.
I've tried longer paddles, but I'm generally a 'in the box' paddler and they feel like they are getting in the way of themselves. When I had a Wenonah Spirit II and was tripping it (BWCA/Quietico) and paddling Wisconsin rivers with the family I used a longer paddle because sometimes I would stand and used a bent the rest of the time. When I started whitewater boating in a Dagger Genesis my paddle shortened up and my technique tightened up with some instruction. Swimming a lot is good motivation LOL
The only canoe I have now is the Supernova and I basically paddle it like the Genesis.
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(Forgive me: I'm sitting at work on a snow day on a rather boring project, so this is likely to get long-winded.) But this is a great discussion that I've thoroughly enjoyed and of course I've found myself considering my paddle with a much more refined, focused and conscious effort in the last week. I even WARILY borrowed a friend's wooden stick for an overnighter last weekend, but it was far too heavy and cumbersome for me to care much for it and I don't put a borrowed paddle through its paces. I'm probably hard on paddles.
Being brought up on VA creeks as a kayaker, my philosophical relationship with the paddle has always been one of benign neglect. For one thing, I'm probably going to lose it, leave it at the take out, break it, or shove it into my neck. (Come to think of it, these may be personal problems.) For another thing, the ultimate goal of the relationship with my boat--which is by far a more important relationship--is to dispense of the paddle altogether. My boat and I are always sort of conspiring to leave the paddle behind. (If we lean on the stick in the water we might call it a crutch, which, metaphorically, is that temporary tool used by people with broken legs.) And but so not to get nutty spiritual or BobFoot-ish here, but if I were in perfect harmonious marriage with my boat and the currents I would not need a paddle. I would be married to the water and with every lean, hands sweeping the water where necessary, I would swim with my boat in a sort of gravitational symbiosis without the interference of some third-wheel paddle that often, in heavy rapids anyway, seems to get in the way.
Alas! I sit too high in my canoe for much enjoyable hand paddling. Much more likely to achieve this symbiosis in a form-fitting glass kayak.
Nonetheless I have dutifully brought this attitude and philosophy to the canoe.
So that after I graduated from the classic aluminum Mohawk--the "off the shelf extrusions chosen for economies of production," as John Winters writes in the excellent essay shared by Peach (I can't help but think of the Complete Wilderness Paddler here, with the "Peach" reference)--which I could pick up for $30 and, like any good American, immediately break or lose just as easily, I found myself, after breaking and replacing a BORROWED Bending Branches paddle, with the equally classic carbon fiber Werner scooped 8x19.5" blade (probably developed after John Winters performed his series of tank tests [see above essay]). This paddle, I thought, will not break. (As an aside, I never much cared for Werner kayak paddles, preferring instead Adventure Technology's AT2 & 4 carbon series--incredible sort of transparent-lighter-than-air kayak paddles--the cost of which I have vowed never to incur again. Fortunately for me, AT does NOT make canoe paddles.) So that in the end, I keep a fairly cheap Aqua Bound carbon fiber Bungee-Dealy-Bobbed to my bow bag for when I inevitably lose my 54" LOA (34.5 shaft length, 125 sq. in. surface area) Werner Carbon Bandit that I'm currently holding in my hands. And frankly, I don’t have much of a relationship with them. Like my wonderful marriage of 25 years: they are adequate. Not perfect. Not ecstatic. But adequate.
Unfortunately, I paid a visit last week to our local boat shop here in Farmville (www.paddleva.com) and decided, against my better judgment, to pick up and investigate a Bending Branches Sunburst (some sort of Alder blade and contoured palm grip with a carbon shaft and by far the lightest paddle I have ever held, Brian sort of stood there smiling with these wide eyes thinking: gotcha) and I could begin to see why so many tend to prefer the feel of wood. After a few years of handling the off-the-shelf T-grip, that was a perfectly contoured grip. And warm. And almost supple like Play-dough. And I began to imagine my boat sort of liking this paddle.
I hung it back up quickly before it jumped into my Jeep.
I have also found that, despite a fairly close measurement between shoulder and water, there are times when I imagine my paddle shaft is too long. Much longer and I could probably reach out and haul myself up the canyon walls! In heavy rapids I sort of find myself hyper-instinctively pulling my paddle inside, closer to the hull, afraid of what it might do to my delicate balancing act stuck out there like a crutch in the screaming maelstrom, with all sorts of hands pulling at it from every which way and me leaning more and more heavily and my balancing act coming off-balance and before you know it I'm unglued and probably tumbling downhill out of control. Such that I can understand whitewater paddlers using shorter LOA's. I can sort of imagine that. But I'm gathering that 125 sq. inches worth of surface area isn't really that much (I always thought it was billowy like a sail and that Bending Branches Sunburst thing I held in my hands comes in at 99 sq. in.), and I'm starting to wonder if maybe I might experiment with a different blade for the "deeper, more thoughtful water," as Robin writes. Deeper, more thoughtful water could probably use a longer, narrower blade. Maybe. According to what I’ve read here. And then I sort of imagine paddling with all sorts of sticks and blades for all sorts of water and I imagine that's probably why some of you's have walls full of paddles.
Of course I envy those who can craft their own paddles from their wood of choice, and can only imagine the satisfaction of finding that perfect harmony of water behavior and blade shape. That sort of eureka moment. And I envy the wisdom found in these folks who have such walls full of such paddles (or perhaps such paddles full of such walls). I suspect that is the only way to really feel which paddles do what and where. Though I should warn you: I have crafted a few pairs of hand paddles out of five gallon buckets, and despite that they for obvious reasons lack the aesthetic pleasure of the works of art that can be seen in these virtual pages, I imagine that form mostly follows along obediently behind function, such that there must at first be function, and that maybe here in the next thirty or so years I’ll begin to develop some Form. Then, in a moment of philosophical weakness, I imagine that we probably bring to the water one of two types of attitudes: either music must conform to truth, or truth must conform to music.
But I'll go ahead and save that rant for another snow day, before I begin considering my cat Jeoffry.
Unc. S.
Being brought up on VA creeks as a kayaker, my philosophical relationship with the paddle has always been one of benign neglect. For one thing, I'm probably going to lose it, leave it at the take out, break it, or shove it into my neck. (Come to think of it, these may be personal problems.) For another thing, the ultimate goal of the relationship with my boat--which is by far a more important relationship--is to dispense of the paddle altogether. My boat and I are always sort of conspiring to leave the paddle behind. (If we lean on the stick in the water we might call it a crutch, which, metaphorically, is that temporary tool used by people with broken legs.) And but so not to get nutty spiritual or BobFoot-ish here, but if I were in perfect harmonious marriage with my boat and the currents I would not need a paddle. I would be married to the water and with every lean, hands sweeping the water where necessary, I would swim with my boat in a sort of gravitational symbiosis without the interference of some third-wheel paddle that often, in heavy rapids anyway, seems to get in the way.
Alas! I sit too high in my canoe for much enjoyable hand paddling. Much more likely to achieve this symbiosis in a form-fitting glass kayak.
Nonetheless I have dutifully brought this attitude and philosophy to the canoe.
So that after I graduated from the classic aluminum Mohawk--the "off the shelf extrusions chosen for economies of production," as John Winters writes in the excellent essay shared by Peach (I can't help but think of the Complete Wilderness Paddler here, with the "Peach" reference)--which I could pick up for $30 and, like any good American, immediately break or lose just as easily, I found myself, after breaking and replacing a BORROWED Bending Branches paddle, with the equally classic carbon fiber Werner scooped 8x19.5" blade (probably developed after John Winters performed his series of tank tests [see above essay]). This paddle, I thought, will not break. (As an aside, I never much cared for Werner kayak paddles, preferring instead Adventure Technology's AT2 & 4 carbon series--incredible sort of transparent-lighter-than-air kayak paddles--the cost of which I have vowed never to incur again. Fortunately for me, AT does NOT make canoe paddles.) So that in the end, I keep a fairly cheap Aqua Bound carbon fiber Bungee-Dealy-Bobbed to my bow bag for when I inevitably lose my 54" LOA (34.5 shaft length, 125 sq. in. surface area) Werner Carbon Bandit that I'm currently holding in my hands. And frankly, I don’t have much of a relationship with them. Like my wonderful marriage of 25 years: they are adequate. Not perfect. Not ecstatic. But adequate.
Unfortunately, I paid a visit last week to our local boat shop here in Farmville (www.paddleva.com) and decided, against my better judgment, to pick up and investigate a Bending Branches Sunburst (some sort of Alder blade and contoured palm grip with a carbon shaft and by far the lightest paddle I have ever held, Brian sort of stood there smiling with these wide eyes thinking: gotcha) and I could begin to see why so many tend to prefer the feel of wood. After a few years of handling the off-the-shelf T-grip, that was a perfectly contoured grip. And warm. And almost supple like Play-dough. And I began to imagine my boat sort of liking this paddle.
I hung it back up quickly before it jumped into my Jeep.
I have also found that, despite a fairly close measurement between shoulder and water, there are times when I imagine my paddle shaft is too long. Much longer and I could probably reach out and haul myself up the canyon walls! In heavy rapids I sort of find myself hyper-instinctively pulling my paddle inside, closer to the hull, afraid of what it might do to my delicate balancing act stuck out there like a crutch in the screaming maelstrom, with all sorts of hands pulling at it from every which way and me leaning more and more heavily and my balancing act coming off-balance and before you know it I'm unglued and probably tumbling downhill out of control. Such that I can understand whitewater paddlers using shorter LOA's. I can sort of imagine that. But I'm gathering that 125 sq. inches worth of surface area isn't really that much (I always thought it was billowy like a sail and that Bending Branches Sunburst thing I held in my hands comes in at 99 sq. in.), and I'm starting to wonder if maybe I might experiment with a different blade for the "deeper, more thoughtful water," as Robin writes. Deeper, more thoughtful water could probably use a longer, narrower blade. Maybe. According to what I’ve read here. And then I sort of imagine paddling with all sorts of sticks and blades for all sorts of water and I imagine that's probably why some of you's have walls full of paddles.
Of course I envy those who can craft their own paddles from their wood of choice, and can only imagine the satisfaction of finding that perfect harmony of water behavior and blade shape. That sort of eureka moment. And I envy the wisdom found in these folks who have such walls full of such paddles (or perhaps such paddles full of such walls). I suspect that is the only way to really feel which paddles do what and where. Though I should warn you: I have crafted a few pairs of hand paddles out of five gallon buckets, and despite that they for obvious reasons lack the aesthetic pleasure of the works of art that can be seen in these virtual pages, I imagine that form mostly follows along obediently behind function, such that there must at first be function, and that maybe here in the next thirty or so years I’ll begin to develop some Form. Then, in a moment of philosophical weakness, I imagine that we probably bring to the water one of two types of attitudes: either music must conform to truth, or truth must conform to music.
But I'll go ahead and save that rant for another snow day, before I begin considering my cat Jeoffry.
Unc. S.
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It kinda depends on your boat and your stance in it and if you use cross strokes/maneuvers.
The most effective "window" for force transfer is with the blade +/- 15 dg of vertical to the stroke.
For straight blade paddles that occurs forward of the knee, which suggests a kneeling stance to enhance torso rotation and forward extension to the catch.
Bent paddles move the window aft along the hull, closer to the paddler's body, allowing the paddler to sit because less forward
reach to the catch is needed. It also allows shorter paddles which yield a higher cadence and more forward speed.
But, if maneuvering in current, the straight blade gives more drawing/ sweeping efficiency, and if employing cross strokes to maneuver we need a straight for control during mandatory cross in water recoveries and more power on cross draws. Crossing strokes also need a little longer shaft.
If the paddler is sitting low, double blades work well for forward but compromise maneuvering somewhat.
Wood is beautiful and allows custom sizing and fit but carbon is lighter and stronger. The oft mentioned complaint about stiffness easily solved by selection of a smaller blade that slips more.
So it goes
The most effective "window" for force transfer is with the blade +/- 15 dg of vertical to the stroke.
For straight blade paddles that occurs forward of the knee, which suggests a kneeling stance to enhance torso rotation and forward extension to the catch.
Bent paddles move the window aft along the hull, closer to the paddler's body, allowing the paddler to sit because less forward
reach to the catch is needed. It also allows shorter paddles which yield a higher cadence and more forward speed.
But, if maneuvering in current, the straight blade gives more drawing/ sweeping efficiency, and if employing cross strokes to maneuver we need a straight for control during mandatory cross in water recoveries and more power on cross draws. Crossing strokes also need a little longer shaft.
If the paddler is sitting low, double blades work well for forward but compromise maneuvering somewhat.
Wood is beautiful and allows custom sizing and fit but carbon is lighter and stronger. The oft mentioned complaint about stiffness easily solved by selection of a smaller blade that slips more.
So it goes
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Light is might
Otherwise I might be sleeping in the mangroves with bugs
15 miles in a 15 mph headwind with the tide running counter at 2 mph
Meant no rest for six hours
Weight matters
Otherwise I might be sleeping in the mangroves with bugs
15 miles in a 15 mph headwind with the tide running counter at 2 mph
Meant no rest for six hours
Weight matters
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Weight matters: absolutely-- if you cycle the paddle 25 times per minute and the stroke length is 18", that's 2250 feet per hour. If paddle A is half a pound lighter than paddle B, the paddler using paddle A is moving 1125 lbs less wood each hour.
In a direct-drive engine, horsepower varies as the square of the RPM. Paddle power varies as the square of the cadence (paddle strokes per minute). Also, there is a linear relationship between drag and the area of the paddle blade. Therefore if we look at two blades-- one a Grey Owl Sugar Island @ 130 square inches and the other a Raven @ 100 square inches, the Sugar Island has 30% more drag; however, it does have more thrust.
But because paddle power varies as the square of the cadence (let's use 25 strokes per minute), the smaller Raven needs to have its cadence increased by only an additional 3.5 strokes per minute to equal the thrust of the much larger Sugar Island, with very little drag penalty, and much less effort required overall.
A lighter paddle with a smaller blade (especially for cruising), and an appropriately-short shaft for the task at hand, are characteristics one might consider when selecting a paddle.
In a direct-drive engine, horsepower varies as the square of the RPM. Paddle power varies as the square of the cadence (paddle strokes per minute). Also, there is a linear relationship between drag and the area of the paddle blade. Therefore if we look at two blades-- one a Grey Owl Sugar Island @ 130 square inches and the other a Raven @ 100 square inches, the Sugar Island has 30% more drag; however, it does have more thrust.
But because paddle power varies as the square of the cadence (let's use 25 strokes per minute), the smaller Raven needs to have its cadence increased by only an additional 3.5 strokes per minute to equal the thrust of the much larger Sugar Island, with very little drag penalty, and much less effort required overall.
A lighter paddle with a smaller blade (especially for cruising), and an appropriately-short shaft for the task at hand, are characteristics one might consider when selecting a paddle.
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Good info peach.
My normal stroke rate is 55-60/minute. I had plenty of time to think while I was padding on my big trip this summer. I calculated something 600,000 strokes for the trip.
Once you get used to a short, lightweight, paddle it's surprising how noticeable it is when you pick one up that's just a couple ounces heavier or an inch longer. Though I'm sure within the course of a couple days the brain and body would adjust so that longer and heavier paddle would feel like the new norm.
Alan
Once you get used to a short, lightweight, paddle it's surprising how noticeable it is when you pick one up that's just a couple ounces heavier or an inch longer. Though I'm sure within the course of a couple days the brain and body would adjust so that longer and heavier paddle would feel like the new norm.
Alan
G
Guest
Guest
because of shoulder issues,lifting the paddle out of the water is painful for me, so I use an inwater recovery a lot. How well a paddle slices to do that is a high priority for me. Most of the time I use a Bending Branches Expresso Plus straight.
Turtle
Turtle
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I'm in the same boat as you Turtle because the bearings in my right shoulder are pretty much shot. The joint creaks and grinds, and sometimes lurches between positions with a short, dull 'pop'. It aches at night, and whenever it gets cold. The Doc laughs and says I've exceeded the number of load/cycles for which it was designed.
In cruise I mostly use an in-water recovery as you do. I find the blade needs a little camber (slight thickness from throat to near the tip, down the centre of the blade) to slice cleanly. A flat blade wanders some when feathered; fluids love curves.
Some years ago I bought an expensive FreeStyle blade that turned out to be quite flat on its 20" X 8.5" blade. It emitted a 'buzz' when quickly feathered, and it zig-zagged through the water. I made my own with a little camber on each side of the blade, and the problem was gone. Flat planes don't make for happy airfoils, and I'm sure it's the same for aqua-foils.
In cruise I mostly use an in-water recovery as you do. I find the blade needs a little camber (slight thickness from throat to near the tip, down the centre of the blade) to slice cleanly. A flat blade wanders some when feathered; fluids love curves.
Some years ago I bought an expensive FreeStyle blade that turned out to be quite flat on its 20" X 8.5" blade. It emitted a 'buzz' when quickly feathered, and it zig-zagged through the water. I made my own with a little camber on each side of the blade, and the problem was gone. Flat planes don't make for happy airfoils, and I'm sure it's the same for aqua-foils.
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G
Guest
Guest
Exactly. I have tried many blades and initially thought a flat thin blade would be best, but one with some thickness like the expresso was best for me. I experienced the buzz too.
Turtle
Turtle
I've got a number of what could be described as FreeStyle paddles and all are double cambered. I guess I am lucky if broke (some were expensive)
I do get a buzz with my double cambered otter tails with a Northwoods stroke and I attribute that to the trailing edge being higher than the leading on the recovery
I do get a buzz with my double cambered otter tails with a Northwoods stroke and I attribute that to the trailing edge being higher than the leading on the recovery
