J Winters "Kite" build

[memaquay]

I found with the osprey, that the portage yoke had to be removable. The seat was far to close, even when positioned 10 inches aft of center. I know one guy who built his yoke into the front of his seat, but that calls for a seat that is almost dead center, fine for many, but not to my liking.

 

[stripperguy]

This is an incredible job. You might have mentioned this, but ... I gather you built the gunwales using a foam core and CF skin. How would you repair the hull if it got bashed in the side? I can imagine a gunwale repair, but those non-removable rails might present a problem dealing with the wood. Or is it indestructible?

Indestructible? Don't I wish!! In the event that the gunnels need repair, the easiest route would be to saw of the damaged section, add a new piece of foam, then laminate with CF, overlapping some onto the non-damaged section. Any epoxy that might remain on the hull after the gunnel is removed would be covered by the replacement material, so even that shouldn't be too big of a problem. Such a repair would not be invisible, but every scar tells a story, and there's no sense trying to hide them. I'm covered from head to toe with scars, and every one of them can prattle on for hours!!

I found with the osprey, that the portage yoke had to be removable. The seat was far to close, even when positioned 10 inches aft of center. I know one guy who built his yoke into the front of his seat, but that calls for a seat that is almost dead center, fine for many, but not to my liking.

mem, thanks for that...that's exactly what I was concerned about.
As the hull sits just now, it is extremely rigid, even without a center thwart. That creased tumblehome does more than just make paddling easier and look cool! Because of that shape, the section modulus in that region is a few orders of magnitude higher than a straight sided hull form. In other words, the hull shape provides much of the stiffness that a thwart normally would. Even so, I don't think I want to paddle it in rough conditions without a center thwart (you may have noticed that I'm a belt AND suspenders kind of guy!). That leaves me with a dilemma...I loathe the idea of a center thwart AND a portage thwart. I equally dislike fussing and mussing with removable fasteners, too easy to lose. Many spots that I carry have no trail, I can see myself spending 2 hours digging through a rotted spruce stump trying to find that stinking wing nut!!

Maybe the answer is to glass in (or should it be "CF" in?, doesn't sound right) some permanent sockets for a combo portage/center thwart?
Yeah, how about that? A portage thwart that pops out of its socket, (like my shoulder used to) and then pops into another socket when it's time to carry!
Wel, I guess I have to brew on that a while..If anyone else wants to chime in here, feel free. I welcome fresh viewpoints.

 

[LF_tripper]

Looking good SG! If you want a centre thwart it will have to be positioned behind the seat, and you are stuck with the removable yolk. My solo has no thwarts and it doesn't need them whatsoever.

How about that seat, though, any new ideas? If you want an adjustable seat that will allow for kneeling you will likely end up cleating it to the inside of the hull, no?

 

[Guest]

I found with the osprey, that the portage yoke had to be removable. The seat was far to close, even when positioned 10 inches aft of center. I know one guy who built his yoke into the front of his seat, but that calls for a seat that is almost dead center, fine for many, but not to my liking.

Either that or lash stuff into the stern, like paddles, to counterbalance it for carrying.

 

[Guest]

Originally Posted by stripperguy
Maybe the answer is to glass in (or should it be "CF" in?, doesn't sound right) some permanent sockets for a combo portage/center thwart?
Yeah, how about that? A portage thwart that pops out of its socket, (like my shoulder used to) and then pops into another socket when it's time to carry!
Wel, I guess I have to brew on that a while..If anyone else wants to chime in here, feel free. I welcome fresh viewpoints.



Here's an idea, courtesy of a friend of mine who made me a set of brackets for a removable solo yoke. Each end of the yoke had a hole to match the hole in the bracket, through which a pin with a bail was inserted. (The sharp eye will notice that the two brackets are made differently. He actually made two sets.)

 

[stripperguy]

Looking good SG! If you want a centre thwart it will have to be positioned behind the seat, and you are stuck with the removable yolk. My solo has no thwarts and it doesn't need them whatsoever.

How about that seat, though, any new ideas? If you want an adjustable seat that will allow for kneeling you will likely end up cleating it to the inside of the hull, no?

Thanks LF, I did have a couple of drips and runs as I did the gunnels, nothing terrible though. I intentionally didn't fully sand the crease, expecting I might have to do some clean up.
I finally settled on making some CF over foam cleats and plan to attach them to the inside of the hull, same as I have done with many wooden cleats/seats.
As I get more comfortable with the foam and CF, I imagine various ways to build that seat frame. The seat frame plans look much like a Conk seat, I think it would look great with its swoopy lines and made of all carbon fiber...it will decidely be adjustable, attached to the cleats using velcro only.

Originally Posted by stripperguy
Maybe the answer is to glass in (or should it be "CF" in?, doesn't sound right) some permanent sockets for a combo portage/center thwart?
Yeah, how about that? A portage thwart that pops out of its socket, (like my shoulder used to) and then pops into another socket when it's time to carry!
Wel, I guess I have to brew on that a while..If anyone else wants to chime in here, feel free. I welcome fresh viewpoints.



Here's an idea, courtesy of a friend of mine who made me a set of brackets for a removable solo yoke. Each end of the yoke had a hole to match the hole in the bracket, through which a pin with a bail was inserted. (The sharp eye will notice that the two brackets are made differently. He actually made two sets.)

View attachment 426View attachment 427

I was just telling MDB about my possible plan for a dual use thwart, we agreed that some sort of hitch pin could work well. I had borrowed my business partners canoe cart once, and I replaced all of his hardware with those ball pin locking hitch pins, just like your photo shows.
I kind of like the idea of those brackets discretely tucked away like that, and I suppose if the pins had just a little shear load on them, they wouldn't rattle and drive me nuts...
I have to go measure the potential locations for a dual use thwart, there might be too much difference between required lengths.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, guys.

And strictly as an aside, I have become very comfortable working with the foam and carbon fiber. Part of the reason why I did all of this CF trim was to gain the experience.
I have been toying with the idea of a skin on carbon fiber frame guideboat for many years, but until I had a grip on the laminating and joining techniques, I kept my dreams in check.
Not anymore...so, look out!!

 

[memaquay]

I'll be outfitting mine very similar to the Osprey shown in the Swift ad

http://www.swiftcanoe.com/canoe/solo/osprey.htm

I did the same with my last one, a thwart behind the seat, and one at about station three or four, can't quite remember. Gavia's suggestion about paddles is actually a good idea, if you aren't using bent shafts, you can just step the paddles in and use them as your yoke, old school style.

 

[Hanz]

Cool! I like the CF tape. I'm glad you figured out how to work it.

The canoe is looking really sharp! You must be proud.

 

[stripperguy]

Here's a quick peek at the future seat cleats. Maybe tomorrow I can wet them out and vacuum bag them. Next they will be epoxied into place in the hull.

Future seat cleats

Look carefully and you'll see the CG of the hull marked on the gunnel. Front edge of the seat cleat goes about 2 inches back from there.

Gunnels and thwarts are only waiting for a final clear coat to make the "pop" once more.

Looking forward, in more ways than one...old thwart is from my dearly departed 17 footer. No, it's not going in this hull, this one will have a CF over foam center/portage thwart.

 

[stripperguy]

Here are the future seat cleats gasping for breath...

and for the sadists out there, a closer view of those suffocating cleats

 

[latremorej]

You do good work SG. I can't wait to see it on the water!

 

[stripperguy]

You do good work SG. I can't wait to see it on the water!

Thanks...I am planning to take it with me on a forum paddle gathering (not this one) in mid May. I might not be able to fully finish before then, I may need to leave off the clear coat. That's OK, it will still paddle the same, even if it doesn't sparkle so brightly! Maybe that's better, I anticipate that it will be difficult to look at directly...

 

[stripperguy]

Dilemma solved!!!

Dilemma solved!!!

SIL was looking at the boat yesterday, and I explained my portage/center thwart dilemma...he suggested using the seat frame as a portage yoke.
Since the seat frame is adjustable, and will be held in place with velcro only, I can add some "tails" to the seat. When it is time to carry, the seat will be removed and flipped front for back. Those tails will then provide the shoulder support for carrying, yet, be out of the way when paddling. Think of a swallowtail butterfly, that's kind of how the sat frame will look.
I will make a fixed center (well, not really center) thwart.
Problem solved! No extra thwarts, no fasteners to fumble with and lose...

Meanwhile, I finished the seat cleats, epoxied them in place, and even added a bit of CF reinforcement. Since I had some epoxy mixed, I also added some resin to the two thwarts.

Have a look

This last view makes the seat cleat look messy, trust me, it looks just right...

 

[memaquay]

Looking good! You are now ahead of me, I'm going to try to put my gunwales in today if the epoxy I put on them last night has set up.

 

[stripperguy]

I would have already been in the water, but the delays caused by the CF tape set me back almost 1 month. As it is, the first launching will be with the boat not fully finished.
I'm going to check your thread in a minute for updates...

 

[latremorej]

Nice! So I gather that you'll be moving the seat to the rear portion and velcroing (is that a word?) The thwart to the front half of the seat hangers? Putting Velcro on the top and bottom light hold the thwart in place underneath the seat while you paddle. Unless it would interfere with putting your feet under the seat that is.

 

[Mihun09]

Are you concerned at all the velcro won't hold if you cantilever the yoke/seat forward of the seat cleats? The boat may only be 30 pounds but the pressure put on the velcro of the boat weight might be enough to peel it away from itself if the yoke is beyond the edge of the cleat.

 

[stripperguy]

Nice! So I gather that you'll be moving the seat to the rear portion and velcroing (is that a word?) The thwart to the front half of the seat hangers? Putting Velcro on the top and bottom light hold the thwart in place underneath the seat while you paddle. Unless it would interfere with putting your feet under the seat that is.

Nope...the thwart will fixed a fixed one, either well forward of the seat, or enough aft to not matter. The seat frame itself will flip around, front for back, when it comes time to carry. The back end of the seat frame will have a set of "tails", maybe more like a luna moth, and those tails (along with some padding) hold the boat on my shoulders. I always planned to make the seat adjustable, and have planned for some now to use that killer velcro.

Are you concerned at all the velcro won't hold if you cantilever the yoke/seat forward of the seat cleats? The boat may only be 30 pounds but the pressure put on the velcro of the boat weight might be enough to peel it away from itself if the yoke is beyond the edge of the cleat.

I did think about this...Have you ever seen that industrial strength velrco? Here in NYS it is used to secure (ever so) an EZ Pass to a car's windshield. The stuff is amazingly strong in pure tension.
And just in case I'm full of it, I can always epoxy in a pair of small cleats, to prevent the seat frame from lifting, should it try to pivot at the potential fulcrum.

 

[stripperguy]

Found it!! The super strength Velcro is a 3M product called "Dual Lock"
Available everywhere and in various widths and backings...

Attached the center thwart last night, I placed it 13 inches ahead of the CG, should be well out of the way.
Also sanded clean my drippy droops from the gunnels.
All that's left now is to make and install the seat, and apply a clear coat to get the hull and trim to perk up!!

 

[stripperguy]

here is a view of the seat frame design. As I mentioned upthread, the "tails" will act as the portage yoke after the seat frame is turned around. Easy switch from paddling to carrying, just peel up the seat, flip it around, and start running...



Oops, the seat fame will look more like this...