J Winters "Kite" build

[latremorej]

Home built is always slow... I was under the (probably incorrect) assumption that commercially built UL composite boats were vacume sealed all at once. Meaning that the cloth and gunnel material are in the mold together and vacuum sealed all at the same time.

If that's the case, you could never expect to make a living on building at home. The hourly labor price would make that one supper expensive stripper!

Unless u had a mold and vacuum system in your garage anyways

 

[stripperguy]

Home built is always slow... I was under the (probably incorrect) assumption that commercially built UL composite boats were vacume sealed all at once. Meaning that the cloth and gunnel material are in the mold together and vacuum sealed all at the same time.

If that's the case, you could never expect to make a living on building at home. The hourly labor price would make that one supper expensive stripper!

Unless u had a mold and vacuum system in your garage anyways

That was my point exactly, I don't have a mold (although I do have my SIL's vacuum equip), and any attempt to prefab the gunnel section would be a futile mess!
I did harbor the dream to build boats for a living...but these last 20 years in my own R & D business would make it very difficult to just build boats. As much as I enjoy it as a pastime, I don't think it would keep my gray matter active enough. I can only do just so many crosswords and cryptograms.

Well, it's out to the boat shop for me now, got to shape the gunnels some more and hurry up and wait for the CF tape that hasn't arrived.

 

[stripperguy]

Short and sweet, but with a photo.
Here's the gunnels so far, outwales and stem overhangs are exactly what I wanted. Still have to shape the inwales.
And where is that CF tape!!??

 

[Rippy]

Do I detect some spork marks on that foam?

 

[stripperguy]

I have really been stalled waiting for that CF tape...
To while away the time, I am messing with some supports for the seat frame.
This is my first shot at it. These will be (if I'm happy with the concept) carbon fiber wrapped and epoxied to the bottom of the hull.
I'll keep some of the top surface flat to attach the velcro that will hold the seat and allow fore/aft adjustment. There's room for 10 or 11 inches of adjustment.
Height at the moment is 10 inches, may need to be a bit lower. As long as I can get my feet under and out easy enough, I'll be happy. I often sit with one or both feet under me, ankles crossed or not, and alternately tuck one foot under while I stretch the other leg out in front. I also spend some time kneeling and heeling...

I'm looking for opinions. Some of you must have had or have a similar bottom mounted seat. Is it easy to live with? How about alternate foot positions? Ease of egress?
And who had that Osprey, is the seat too high? Maybe I shouldn't finish the seat support until I get it in the water and see what works and what doesn't??

 

[LF_tripper]

I was waiting to see what solution you had for the seat. The kite has very close to the same specs as my solo, except mine is 16' instead of 14' 10". I really like the look of cedar inside with the red out, and the black gunnels will compliment the whole canoe nicely.

The seat to me is too high. I ended up with 7" from the bottom of the canoe to the top of the seat from trial and error, as the seat was the last piece to be built. 7" to me is perfect, however, I never kneel unless I have to, which is pretty much never.

The bottom mount is something you have to live with if you want CF gunnels and don't want to punch holes in the hull. Yes, there are other solutions, but are too cumbersome to someone like me who likes to keep it simple. I like your idea for an ajustable bow to stern seat, and your concept never occurred to me. It seems absolutely viable to me, but field testing will decide.

Feet under the seat in a solo. Really?
Ease of egress? .... Of course everything is a tradeoff, the lower the seat, the harder it is to get out, but to me it is no big deal. But then again, if a 5 mile portage is part of the plan, egress must be way down on the list of things to be concerned with.

Dare I ask about the portage yolk?

 

[Guest]

I kneel and use various foot positions, including turning my toes under so they point forward. That position, in particular, requires at least 9 inches clearance, with 9-1/2 the ideal. The front rail is 3/4"-1" lower than the back rail. I think you'll find that your pedestal supports will interfere with foot placement and movement. It's an ingenious idea, but I think you'd be better off if you put them in the bilges instead of on the floor.

 

[latremorej]

http://ngc704.home.comcast.net/~ngc704/merlin/Page 3.htm

SG, Have you considered a pedestal type seat, or is that what your going with already?

 

[stripperguy]

I was waiting to see what solution you had for the seat. The kite has very close to the same specs as my solo, except mine is 16' instead of 14' 10". I really like the look of cedar inside with the red out, and the black gunnels will compliment the whole canoe nicely.

The seat to me is too high. I ended up with 7" from the bottom of the canoe to the top of the seat from trial and error, as the seat was the last piece to be built. 7" to me is perfect, however, I never kneel unless I have to, which is pretty much never.

The bottom mount is something you have to live with if you want CF gunnels and don't want to punch holes in the hull. Yes, there are other solutions, but are too cumbersome to someone like me who likes to keep it simple. I like your idea for an ajustable bow to stern seat, and your concept never occurred to me. It seems absolutely viable to me, but field testing will decide.

Feet under the seat in a solo. Really?
Ease of egress? .... Of course everything is a tradeoff, the lower the seat, the harder it is to get out, but to me it is no big deal. But then again, if a 5 mile portage is part of the plan, egress must be way down on the list of things to be concerned with.

Dare I ask about the portage yolk?

I kneel and use various foot positions, including turning my toes under so they point forward. That position, in particular, requires at least 9 inches clearance, with 9-1/2 the ideal. The front rail is 3/4"-1" lower than the back rail. I think you'll find that your pedestal supports will interfere with foot placement and movement. It's an ingenious idea, but I think you'd be better off if you put them in the bilges instead of on the floor.

I can easily make some foam/CF cleats that attach the sides of the hull, but this will force the seat frame to be quite wide. Also, to allow for the adjustable positions, the cleats would be necessarily wide, to accommodate the change in width of the hull.
I saw that pedestal seat in the link that LF_tripper provided...I didn't like the amount of real estate that it eats up, precious room for my alternating foot positions.

More in a bit...

 

[memaquay]

I primarily sit, but usually kneel when running white water. I hung the seat in my Osprey about three inches down from the top of the inwale, and this allowed me to do both. The Osprey is not a tender canoe, even unloaded it is not really interested in being twitchy.

 

[stripperguy]

I primarily sit, but usually kneel when running white water. I hung the seat in my Osprey about three inches down from the top of the inwale, and this allowed me to do both. The Osprey is not a tender canoe, even unloaded it is not really interested in being twitchy.

So it was you!! With the Osprey, I mean. I lose track...
The kite and Osprey are nearly the same hull below the waterline (Kite a bit more rounded, Osprey a bit more vee), so I would suppose the handling will be similar.
If you were comfortable with the seat 3 inches down from the inwale, I probably would be too.
The more I look at it, the bottom supports won't do what I'm hoping.

Now about that portage yoke, uhmmm...I haven't fully decided just how removable it should be.
I don't have any aversions about drilling holes, but I am not fond of any fasteners that can be lost.
I still have some time to figure these things out.

And if anyone else has input, please, don't hold back.

 

[stripperguy]

You guys (and gals) have probably noticed that I've been quiet lately.
Well, that carbon fiber woven tape finally arrived. I only had enough time tonight to place the tape in place on the foam gunnels.
The part of the gunnels where they overhang the stems will be a little tricky. I'll likely need to add an extra layer over that overhang, partly to do a clean job laminating, mostly for protection when the boat is rolled over on the ground.
I took a few photos, maybe wet out the gunnels tomorrow.
In the last two photos, you can see the future seat cleats and future thwarts, along with a gathering of tools and residue.

 

[Hanz]

Ha! I was getting antsy waiting for an update. You must have been going nuts.

Looks great. I like the red and black.

Thanks for the photos

 

[stripperguy]

Ha! I was getting antsy waiting for an update. You must have been going nuts.

Looks great. I like the red and black.

Thanks for the photos

Antsy! ANTSY!! I was crawling the walls!! Mostly, I had planned to be finished by now, the waters are opening up here and soon in the ADK's.
I did have a few other things to occupy my time...

Here's a few photos of one gunnel that I just wet out...it was tough going. I couldn't get the CF tape to conform at first, it needed more overlap onto the hull.
I ended up pretty sticky. I have to wait to do the second side until after the first side resin cures. Even then, I'll need to do a third wet out, doing just the stem overlap.
I also had a tough time to keep the edge of the tape straight and keep a uniform overlap on the hull all the way from bow to stern. Maybe I can do better with the next side...

 

[latremorej]

Looking really good!

 

[stripperguy]

Looking really good!

Thanks,
I really struggled to get that CF tape in place firmly. I didn't look at it this morning to see how it all looks now. Hopefully, I can finish all the gunnel stuff this week.

 

[stripperguy]

Yesterday, I did the other side gunnel. It went much easier and there was less trauma, knowing what to expect from the night before.
I first trimmed the stray fibers that were splayed out at the stems, then rolled and brushed the resin on.
And just now, I trimmed any stray fibers from the second side, and applied a covering coat to most of the gunnels. I also added a stem cap, to cover the spots that the long gunnel pieces couldn't. After this bunch of resin cures, I'll quickly sand the carbon fiber, add another layer of CF to the stem caps, and add a bit more resin all over. The second layer of CF at the stem caps is to protect them, they are a high wear area, taking a beating every time the hull is rolled over.
I gotta say, when I first started wetting out the other gunnel, I didn't have very high hopes. But this has actually exceeded my expectations.

Take a look...

Remember, there will be a final clear coat over the entire hull, so the cloudy, matte looking red hull with be a brilliant source of distraction.

 

[memaquay]

Looking good!

 

[stripperguy]

Gunnels and thwarts are coming along nicely...

After the resin cures, I'll knock down those stray fibers and add a bit more resin.
I still haven't decided on the portage thwart, whether it will be a permanently attached piece or not.
I have to see how it fits/interferes with the seating position.

 

[Guest]

This is an incredible job. You might have mentioned this, but ... I gather you built the gunwales using a foam core and CF skin. How would you repair the hull if it got bashed in the side? I can imagine a gunwale repair, but those non-removable rails might present a problem dealing with the wood. Or is it indestructible?