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Composite Bloodvein build
- Thread starter Alan Gage
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Just a few thoughts about the Peel Ply, and correct me If I'm off !
I used a roller on a much smaller area, and no pin holes. I also struggled with air pockets, that the squeegee may have corrected.
Wetting out the 9 oz S-glass had me in a tizzy !
I couldn't get big pockets to wet out ! Frantic, as I had used a Fast hardener. Things were getting away from me time wise. I grabbed a squeegee, and was able to get the pockets saturated.
Somewhere between a squeegee and a roller, there is a solution, for the Peel Ply.
The viscosity of the resin may be involved. The RAKA UV-inhibited, seemed Thicker than the Regular 127 resin with the 350 non-blush hardener, that I'm used to using.
For now I'm thinking about gunnels, for the CF, how about you?.
Jim
I used a roller on a much smaller area, and no pin holes. I also struggled with air pockets, that the squeegee may have corrected.
Wetting out the 9 oz S-glass had me in a tizzy !
I couldn't get big pockets to wet out ! Frantic, as I had used a Fast hardener. Things were getting away from me time wise. I grabbed a squeegee, and was able to get the pockets saturated.
Somewhere between a squeegee and a roller, there is a solution, for the Peel Ply.
The viscosity of the resin may be involved. The RAKA UV-inhibited, seemed Thicker than the Regular 127 resin with the 350 non-blush hardener, that I'm used to using.
For now I'm thinking about gunnels, for the CF, how about you?.
Jim
I think my peel ply problems have mostly been related to not enough resin. I kept using my normal amount of resin to wet out the cloth and not adding any more after putting down the peel ply. But the peel ply soaks up a little and if you want to fill the weave with the peel ply it just plain takes more resin to do that. I know you've already figured that out and the roller would work great. I do like using the squeegee in conjunction with the roller even when I'm not using peel ply. If the resin gets too heavy in an area I have trouble moving it around with the roller. With the squeegee I can quickly drag a puddle to a dry area.
I was really disappointed to see a few small areas with pinholes after pulling the peel ply. I really thought I'd gotten it perfect this time. I couldn't see any bubbles in the peel ply.
That must have been pretty hectic. That stuff sets up quick! I can't believe you go it all wet out before it gelled. You must have been flying! I've been caught wetting out cloth as a fast setting epoxy starts to kick. It's no fun.
Yep. I've got about 100 feet of carbon fiber sleeve in the shop and will get the cedar cut out and scarfed in the next couple days. Think I've got a plan for wrapping the gunwales with sleeve, forming them off the canoe, then installing as separate in/outwales. We'll see how it pans out.
The carbon over cedar gunwales on the original Bloodvein came in at under 5 pounds. Expecting the same here.
Alan
Gentlemen, I know I have said it before, but system three clear coat is the best wet-out epoxy out there. Thin as water. No good for fill coats, but you won't find a better wet out resin. Long working time, like realllllllly long.
I looked up the specs and as far as working time and viscosity go it appears nearly identical to the Adtech 820 series. Viscocity of right around 400cp and 60 minute pot life (with slow hardener).
The Adtech Probuild, which I have as well, is much thicker being rated at 900-1100cp. I've used it to wetout cloth and it certainly takes a little longer. Nice for fill coats though. Pot life from 14-50 minutes depending on hardener**.
I checked the standard Raka resin and it falls in between with a viscosity of 600cp and a pot life range from 8-30 minutes depending on hardener.
I hope to try System 3 resin sometime, it sounds like nice stuff. I was very happy with the WR-LPU waterborne finish I used.
**I left out the "tropical" hardener for probuild which has a 125 minute pot life and is considerably thinner at 460cp.
Alan
I agree Mem ! I still used it for fill coats. Taking up to 5 or 6 coats to fill the weave.
I used System Three's Clear coat for years ! Strong and great to work with. They put out a lot of good info. I would buy direct from System Three, buying their 15 gallon kits, making it cheaper than some varnishes.
But all of a sudden, they quit selling to individuals, and threw in a middle man. The price went too high.
I helped a good friend with his first canoe. He ordered RAKA. It was cheaper, and useable.
I am going to look at Adtech , when I start running low on RAKA.
Jim
I used System Three's Clear coat for years ! Strong and great to work with. They put out a lot of good info. I would buy direct from System Three, buying their 15 gallon kits, making it cheaper than some varnishes.
But all of a sudden, they quit selling to individuals, and threw in a middle man. The price went too high.
I helped a good friend with his first canoe. He ordered RAKA. It was cheaper, and useable.
I am going to look at Adtech , when I start running low on RAKA.
Jim
Time to start messing with gunwales. As you're all aware by now I'm incapable of doing things the easy way, or even the best way, or many times doing something the same way twice.
Well this time I'm sort of doing the same thing twice. I liked my carbon over cedar gunwales so much on my first Bloodvein I'm going to do them again on my composite. I'm even keeping the same profile with a 1/2" round over on the bottom, which begins right where the gunwales meets the hull on these ~5/8" wide pieces, and a 1/4" round over on the top. The 1/2" round over on the bottom leaves no flat ledge to hold water when the canoe is inverted. So instead of all the water flowing along the ledge until it hits your hand and then running down into your arm pit it just dumps out of the boat instead. Very nice.
But I remember what a pain in the arse those were so I want to try something different. The first time I used a single piece gunwale and epoxied it to the hull before wrapping it with layers of kevlar, carbon, and fiberglass tape. Then I vacuum bagged the whole assembly. It was a lot of work and and the release fabric wrinkled on the inside curve and left me with a lot of cleanup work. Sand, epoxy, sand, epoxy, sand, epoxy, etc.... It's very difficult to keep a straight edge when using the carbon tape too. I'd like to avoid all that hassle this time.
So I'm going to do separate inwales/outwales and form them off the canoe. This will let me use carbon sleeve instead of tape. And I'm going to try to set up some forms so that after cured they'll have the correct, or nearly correct, shape. I'm guessing that once the carbon/epoxy has cured they won't do much bending.
To compress the carbon sleeve against the cedar gunwales I'll be using heat shrink tape: http://www.shrinktape.com/products/hi-shrink-tape/hi-shrink-tape.aspx
It's a lot less money than shrink tube (about $21/100yard roll) and I'm hoping will be easier to install (how do you get a 17' piece of heat shrink over a goopy wetted out gunwale?) and that it will handle the curve well.
Last night I did a short test piece and it came out very nicely:
20160202_008 by Alan, on Flickr
20160202_006 by Alan, on Flickr
The shrink tape went on well, pressed out the excess epoxy (between the overlaps) and left a nicely filled weave and glossy surface. The lines from the tape are visible but after a light sanding and coat of epoxy I think they'll be gone.
Today I had the afternoon off with a big storm hitting so I decided to go full scale and spent the day in the shop getting ready:
Here's the contraption:
20160202_002 by Alan, on Flickr
20160202_003 by Alan, on Flickr
20160202_004 by Alan, on Flickr
Between the shape of the clamps, hull, and forms I was unable to clamp them directly to the hull. So instead I used the clamps as stops and then tied the forms to the hull to keep them in place.
Then I had to build a clean place where I could wet out an entire gunwale. Just a couple 8' pieces of 1/4" melamine with 1x2's screwed to the edges:
20160202_001 by Alan, on Flickr
The sleeve went on nice:
20160202_005 by Alan, on Flickr
Then wetted out, clamped to the forms, and shrunk the tape:
20160202_007 by Alan, on Flickr
20160202_010 by Alan, on Flickr
Ideally you'd clamp to the forms to bend the gunwale before wrapping with tape but I think that would be nearly impossible and incredibly tedious. Wrapping the roll around the pieces takes FOR-EV-ER. Much quicker if you can hold the roll in place and spin the piece.
I'll see what I get tomorrow, or maybe the day after, but at this point I'm not terribly hopeful. After bending the gunwale into place and shrinking the tape it tended to bunch up on the inside curve. This section is tough enough since it's flat (tape puts pressure on corners instead of the flat surface). At least this is the edge that will be epoxied to the hull so looks don't matter. The visible surfaces look pretty good for the most part. There are still some small wrinkles in areas, due to bending after wrapping I believe, so I think I'll have some smoothing work ahead of me.
I'm curious to see how much flex the piece retains and how much the carbon contains the wood's "spring-back" after it's removed from the forms.
Alan
Well this time I'm sort of doing the same thing twice. I liked my carbon over cedar gunwales so much on my first Bloodvein I'm going to do them again on my composite. I'm even keeping the same profile with a 1/2" round over on the bottom, which begins right where the gunwales meets the hull on these ~5/8" wide pieces, and a 1/4" round over on the top. The 1/2" round over on the bottom leaves no flat ledge to hold water when the canoe is inverted. So instead of all the water flowing along the ledge until it hits your hand and then running down into your arm pit it just dumps out of the boat instead. Very nice.
But I remember what a pain in the arse those were so I want to try something different. The first time I used a single piece gunwale and epoxied it to the hull before wrapping it with layers of kevlar, carbon, and fiberglass tape. Then I vacuum bagged the whole assembly. It was a lot of work and and the release fabric wrinkled on the inside curve and left me with a lot of cleanup work. Sand, epoxy, sand, epoxy, sand, epoxy, etc.... It's very difficult to keep a straight edge when using the carbon tape too. I'd like to avoid all that hassle this time.
So I'm going to do separate inwales/outwales and form them off the canoe. This will let me use carbon sleeve instead of tape. And I'm going to try to set up some forms so that after cured they'll have the correct, or nearly correct, shape. I'm guessing that once the carbon/epoxy has cured they won't do much bending.
To compress the carbon sleeve against the cedar gunwales I'll be using heat shrink tape: http://www.shrinktape.com/products/hi-shrink-tape/hi-shrink-tape.aspx
It's a lot less money than shrink tube (about $21/100yard roll) and I'm hoping will be easier to install (how do you get a 17' piece of heat shrink over a goopy wetted out gunwale?) and that it will handle the curve well.
Last night I did a short test piece and it came out very nicely:
20160202_008 by Alan, on Flickr20160202_006 by Alan, on FlickrThe shrink tape went on well, pressed out the excess epoxy (between the overlaps) and left a nicely filled weave and glossy surface. The lines from the tape are visible but after a light sanding and coat of epoxy I think they'll be gone.
Today I had the afternoon off with a big storm hitting so I decided to go full scale and spent the day in the shop getting ready:
Here's the contraption:
20160202_002 by Alan, on Flickr20160202_003 by Alan, on Flickr20160202_004 by Alan, on FlickrBetween the shape of the clamps, hull, and forms I was unable to clamp them directly to the hull. So instead I used the clamps as stops and then tied the forms to the hull to keep them in place.
Then I had to build a clean place where I could wet out an entire gunwale. Just a couple 8' pieces of 1/4" melamine with 1x2's screwed to the edges:
20160202_001 by Alan, on FlickrThe sleeve went on nice:
20160202_005 by Alan, on FlickrThen wetted out, clamped to the forms, and shrunk the tape:
20160202_007 by Alan, on Flickr20160202_010 by Alan, on FlickrIdeally you'd clamp to the forms to bend the gunwale before wrapping with tape but I think that would be nearly impossible and incredibly tedious. Wrapping the roll around the pieces takes FOR-EV-ER. Much quicker if you can hold the roll in place and spin the piece.
I'll see what I get tomorrow, or maybe the day after, but at this point I'm not terribly hopeful. After bending the gunwale into place and shrinking the tape it tended to bunch up on the inside curve. This section is tough enough since it's flat (tape puts pressure on corners instead of the flat surface). At least this is the edge that will be epoxied to the hull so looks don't matter. The visible surfaces look pretty good for the most part. There are still some small wrinkles in areas, due to bending after wrapping I believe, so I think I'll have some smoothing work ahead of me.
I'm curious to see how much flex the piece retains and how much the carbon contains the wood's "spring-back" after it's removed from the forms.
Alan
That does look elaborate !
In these cool temps, I'd wait near a week before pulling off your forms. My fear would be the bend in the cedar would stress the bond between the green resin and the carbon.
I'm guessing that's the outwhale ?
Jim
In these cool temps, I'd wait near a week before pulling off your forms. My fear would be the bend in the cedar would stress the bond between the green resin and the carbon.
I'm guessing that's the outwhale ?
Jim
Alan,
Great idea!! I've considered off the hull preshaped gunnels but couldn't imagine how to duplicate the 3D shapes without creating some elaborate 3D forms.
Very nice solution... But now what? Do you need to cut a slot in the gunnels to fit over the hull? If so, how will you keep the cut straight and true?
Great idea!! I've considered off the hull preshaped gunnels but couldn't imagine how to duplicate the 3D shapes without creating some elaborate 3D forms.
Very nice solution... But now what? Do you need to cut a slot in the gunnels to fit over the hull? If so, how will you keep the cut straight and true?
There will be separate innies and outies.
Probably a good idea. Will be hard to wait that long. Maybe I'll tent it with a heater. It already got a jump start with the heat gun.
Alan
Left the gunwale clamped to the form but removed the tape today so I could see how it looks. Meh. The outside edge and bottom look real nice. The top edge is ok in places, in others some good wrinkles. The inside edge, which will go against the hull, is badly wrinkled. Not very impressed and don't think I'll continue using the heat shrink take for this application. If the piece could be left straight it would be fine but putting that bend in it after wrapping with tape really messes things up. And on the inwales the inside curve would be the exposed edge so definitely not going to do it there.
Tomorrow I'll wet out the other outwale and clamp it to the form with no tape and see how it turns out. Hopefully the cloth will stay nice and then it will just require fill coats to fill the weave.
Being lazy tonight so no pics. Tomorrow.
Alan
Tomorrow I'll wet out the other outwale and clamp it to the form with no tape and see how it turns out. Hopefully the cloth will stay nice and then it will just require fill coats to fill the weave.
Being lazy tonight so no pics. Tomorrow.
Alan
The gunwale held its shape pretty well after pulling it off the form. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was still quite flexible. If you had a boat without a lot of rise in the shear or extreme flare in the bow I think you could let it cure straight and still bend it to fit the hull.
20160206_002 by Alan, on Flickr
Some of the finish looked pretty good after pulling the shrink tape:
20160206_003 by Alan, on Flickr
But most of it didn't:
20160206_004 by Alan, on Flickr
Like I said before I believe the problem stemmed from wrapping the gunwale while straight and then bending it the shape of the hull. There's no flex in the tape and when it's shrunk it can't take up all the slack that was created. The inside edge, that will go against the hull, was by far the worst.
So there's no point in going to hassle of using tape again. For the next outwale I wetted out the sleeve and clamped it directly to the forms. This worked fine and was a lot less hassle. It will require fill coats later fill the weave:
20160206_001 (1) by Alan, on Flickr
I was afraid clamping directly to the wet fabric would cause it to wrinkle or bunch up but it was no problem at all. So then I thought why not skip the form all together and glue and clamp it to the hull while the cloth was still wet. So that's what I did for both of the inwales and, so far, it's the best way I've done this. I put on the sleeve, wet it out, apply thickened epoxy to the hull, and then clamped the heck out of it. Big time saver. On one side I clamped the inwale and outwale at the same time without any problem (the outwale was already cured).
I had no problems at all with the cloth pulling out of shape. The clamps do give you patterns/ridges in the epoxy but I was able to pull the clamps while the epoxy was still green and it only took about 5 minutes to easily shave them off with a sharp chisel.
Still have fill coats to go but the gunwales are all on the hull:
20160207_001 by Alan, on Flickr
I did another weigh-in tonight and it's up to 35.25 pounds. Wait a second while I go see what the original woodstrip Bloodvein weighed at this point.......Ok I'm back. The original weighed 40 pounds at this point. Looks like a lost a little ground in the weight race. Wonder what made these gunwales a pound heavier than the ones on the original Bloodvein? Same thickness and profile. I did run the outwales nearly to the stems, about 12" longer on each end. That shouldn't account for all of it though. Hmmm.
I'm onto thwarts and grab handles now. I've got them all shaped but only had enough sleeve for one grab handle and one thwart. Those two are wetted out and the rest can wait until later in the week.
20160207_002 by Alan, on Flickr
Alan
20160206_002 by Alan, on FlickrSome of the finish looked pretty good after pulling the shrink tape:
20160206_003 by Alan, on FlickrBut most of it didn't:
20160206_004 by Alan, on FlickrLike I said before I believe the problem stemmed from wrapping the gunwale while straight and then bending it the shape of the hull. There's no flex in the tape and when it's shrunk it can't take up all the slack that was created. The inside edge, that will go against the hull, was by far the worst.
So there's no point in going to hassle of using tape again. For the next outwale I wetted out the sleeve and clamped it directly to the forms. This worked fine and was a lot less hassle. It will require fill coats later fill the weave:
20160206_001 (1) by Alan, on FlickrI was afraid clamping directly to the wet fabric would cause it to wrinkle or bunch up but it was no problem at all. So then I thought why not skip the form all together and glue and clamp it to the hull while the cloth was still wet. So that's what I did for both of the inwales and, so far, it's the best way I've done this. I put on the sleeve, wet it out, apply thickened epoxy to the hull, and then clamped the heck out of it. Big time saver. On one side I clamped the inwale and outwale at the same time without any problem (the outwale was already cured).
I had no problems at all with the cloth pulling out of shape. The clamps do give you patterns/ridges in the epoxy but I was able to pull the clamps while the epoxy was still green and it only took about 5 minutes to easily shave them off with a sharp chisel.
Still have fill coats to go but the gunwales are all on the hull:
20160207_001 by Alan, on FlickrI did another weigh-in tonight and it's up to 35.25 pounds. Wait a second while I go see what the original woodstrip Bloodvein weighed at this point.......Ok I'm back. The original weighed 40 pounds at this point. Looks like a lost a little ground in the weight race. Wonder what made these gunwales a pound heavier than the ones on the original Bloodvein? Same thickness and profile. I did run the outwales nearly to the stems, about 12" longer on each end. That shouldn't account for all of it though. Hmmm.
I'm onto thwarts and grab handles now. I've got them all shaped but only had enough sleeve for one grab handle and one thwart. Those two are wetted out and the rest can wait until later in the week.
20160207_002 by Alan, on FlickrAlan
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Look great indeed!! Good work!
At this point I don't think so. I've never had a problem with my gunwales getting roughed up.
Alan
Jim,
You may be remembering my carbon fiber over foam gunnels...CF over foam thwarts with 2 layers of CF sleeving was fine. Single layer of bias woven CF tape over foam was not strong enough for cartopping on racks. I had to add a layer of glass tape over the CF to avoid deformations.
Alan's gunnels benefit from the much higher modulus of his wood substrate.
Sorry for the lack of updates but I have been plugging away at it steadily.
Float tanks are built and installed, holes drilled and PVC pipes installed for painter lines, sliding seat nearly done, and the cherry gunwale tips are epoxied in place. My outwales, after scarfing, weren't quite long enough to reach the stems so I thought a hardwood tip would be nice and rugged. I'll sand them down later and see how they look before decided if I'll leave them natural or color them black.
20160222_002 by Alan, on Flickr
20160222_003 by Alan, on Flickr
20160222_004 by Alan, on Flickr
I also got a new shop helper:
20160221_005_1 by Alan, on Flickr
Found him yesterday while out for a walk. Don't know if he's lost or abandoned. Really good dog. Way too good of a dog to dump. Very skinny though. If no one claims him I already have a good home lined up.
Alan
Float tanks are built and installed, holes drilled and PVC pipes installed for painter lines, sliding seat nearly done, and the cherry gunwale tips are epoxied in place. My outwales, after scarfing, weren't quite long enough to reach the stems so I thought a hardwood tip would be nice and rugged. I'll sand them down later and see how they look before decided if I'll leave them natural or color them black.
20160222_002 by Alan, on Flickr20160222_003 by Alan, on Flickr20160222_004 by Alan, on FlickrI also got a new shop helper:
20160221_005_1 by Alan, on FlickrFound him yesterday while out for a walk. Don't know if he's lost or abandoned. Really good dog. Way too good of a dog to dump. Very skinny though. If no one claims him I already have a good home lined up.
Alan
Oh that seat looks sweet !
Flotation also has merit ! Should be plenty to keep the CF floating !
I'd vote for Fluorescent paint on those end caps ! That way at night, while camping a quick flash of light would confirm it's still around.
Waiting for the thwarts !
Glad you found a home for the pup . I want a canoe dog so bad ! Just hard to pull it off with the wife.
I can see I'd better get in gear ! Sanded the CF today, and pulled it off of Nokomis. Too many irons in the fire right now !
Thanks for the inspiration !
Jim
Flotation also has merit ! Should be plenty to keep the CF floating !
I'd vote for Fluorescent paint on those end caps ! That way at night, while camping a quick flash of light would confirm it's still around.
Waiting for the thwarts !
Glad you found a home for the pup . I want a canoe dog so bad ! Just hard to pull it off with the wife.
I can see I'd better get in gear ! Sanded the CF today, and pulled it off of Nokomis. Too many irons in the fire right now !
Thanks for the inspiration !
Jim
I like the way the wood ends look, it gives it a little definition and character
Jason
Jason
