Composite Bloodvein build

[Alan Gage]

I've looked into it a little before and have forgotten most of what I read so need to go back through it again. But from what I remember and off hand from the link that Mike posted I don't see any sections that say anything about flotation being required for non-motorized boats like canoes. Racing canoes from Wenonah, Savage River, Crozier, etc. don't generally come with float tanks or anything that would keep them above water except for a foam core or any wood components. That doesn't mean I plan in building composite canoes without tanks but I don't think anyone is going to be keeping tabs on me for it.

Since the regulation is divided according to boat type, the applicability for the various types is
discussed in each subpart. The exceptions, however, apply to all subparts and are as follows:
Sailboats, canoes, kayaks, inflatable boats, submersibles, surface effect vessels, amphibious
vessels, multi-hull boats and race-boats need not comply.

I don't know if I get to pick my own manufacturer ID code or not but since everything I can possibly think of is already taken I guess it doesn't really matter. Hard to believe there's anything left.

Alan

 

[Guest]

I don't know if I get to pick my own manufacturer ID code or not but since everything I can possibly think of is already taken I guess it doesn't really matter. Hard to believe there's anything left.

As a home State homage it looks like IWA (pronounced I-wah) is still unassigned.

If you plug Iowa into the State field in that database search there area surprising number of Iowa boat builders.

 

[Rippy]

Ya got this thing done yet ya slacker?

 

[Alan Gage]

Ya got this thing done yet ya slacker?

I am starting to feel like a slacker. After the 2nd coat I let the boat sit for a few days so the epoxy could harden. As soon as I work up a little more ambition I'm heading out to the shop to sand down the entire hull to smooth things out. Then one more skim coat of epoxy for a glossy finish. I'll let that set up hard and then wax it before laying up the actual composite hull. From the looks of the weather it won't be until next weekend at the soonest. I hate cranking the heat up in the shop for large composite projects in cold weather.

As a home State homage it looks like IWA (pronounced I-wah) is still unassigned.

You're more creative than I am but I like it.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

This is starting to intrigue me !

Here's a name. Iowa Water Cutters !

I Want, Buzzard Bottom Canoe Works. Humboldt has a ritzy housing addition, up the hill form my shop, called Eagle Ridge.
I feel real comfortable with Buzzard Bottom !

Jim

I've got two names I'd like for my

 

[Alan Gage]

Things are finally starting to happen. It's been sitting to let the epoxy harden and waiting for outside temps to rebound a bit before cranking the heat in the shop. This weekend I gave it a coat of wax and a few light coats of sprayed PVA. I went light on the wax putting my faith in the PVA. I would have omitted the wax altogether but there were still quite a few staple holes and I thought it might help fill them; which it did, kinda. If I were starting over again rather than just touching up the trouble areas with bondo I would have used fairing compound on the entire hull.

Last night I finally started laying down some cloth. From my GP build I decided the seams from multiple layers of buried cloth partials were too obnoxious to layup everything from the outside so this canoe will be done half and half. I'm still burying some partials in the first round but not too many.

First went a full layer of kevlar trimmed to be just shy of the shear line; I don't want to have to cut/sand/grind any kevlar once it's cured. Then came a roughly 4' long section of carbon in the center of the boat that reached from gunwale to gunwale. Then a carbon piece on the bottom (bilge curve to bilge curve) and finally a full layer of carbon.

Still to go on the outside is a 30" wide piece of s-glass and more s-glass reinforcements at the stems. I had planned to do that layer last night too but I think I've come to the realization that trying to do 4 or more layers in one sitting on a project this big is just too much. I use a squeegee all along to remove excess resin from each layer but as I keep adding layers and pouring on more resin that new resin seems to soak down into all the layers. That's fine but it seems to soak in easier than it squeegees out of those buried layers.

So I spent over an hour slowly going over the hull with a squeegee trying to get that buried resin out. I don't think you could quite call the oldest resin "gelled" yet but it certainly isn't as runny as the fresh stuff. As a result it will not push back up through all the layers while you squeegee. So all you can do is try to force it down to the shear, which is easier said than done as it gets stiffer and stiffer. It takes two hands on the squeegee and a slow pull to get it the resin moving. Getting it over the knuckle and down the tumblehome to the shear is the worst part. It was by far the worst in the center of the boat where there were 4 layers of cloth. From here on out I think I'll stick to two layers at a time when hand laminating.

But the good news is the multiple layers wrapped around the stems nicely. I was worried the stiffer carbon and kevlar cloths might not like the sharp stems but it was no issue.

20160103_003 by Alan, on Flickr

20160103_004 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan

 

[wysedav]

Wow looking good. I'd be worried when doing 4 layers at once that there would be way to much epoxy. I guess you're using a really slow hardener? Are you worried about getting it off the forms? I thought you had a hard time with the other build.

I would have love to see you bag the whole canoe, it would have been a great learning experience for me (probably not as fun for you).

 

[Alan Gage]

Wow looking good. I'd be worried when doing 4 layers at once that there would be way to much epoxy. I guess you're using a really slow hardener? Are you worried about getting it off the forms? I thought you had a hard time with the other build.

I would have love to see you bag the whole canoe, it would have been a great learning experience for me (probably not as fun for you).

The hardener I'm using has a 45 minute pot life at 77 degrees. I usually run my shop around 70 for laminating. I quit 4 hours after I mixed my first batch of epoxy and I still wouldn't call it "gelled" although of course any significant amount left in a cup would have long since warmed and kicked. Even now, 12 hours after layup in a 65 degree shop, it's slightly tacky. I might try using a different resin/hardener setup that has a 1.5 hour pot life and should be thinner as well.

Yes, I am a little worried about getting it off the mold but since this mold is sacrificial I'm hoping it won't be too bad, even if it is a little stuck. Take it off the forms, flip it over, and rip out the wood.

I might vacuum bag the inner layers, we'll see. The problem I have with trying to bag the exterior is that I know this mold isn't air tight so you'd never get a good seal. That and having to construct a flange. The inside will be partial layers so I could seal the bag at the shear.

Alan

 

[wysedav]

I thought you could take the mold off the forms carefully and lay a sheet of plastic under it and but it back on the forms that way you wouldn't have to worry about leakage. Or a nice 6 oz layer on top would have worked nicely as a vacuum seal, and then you could've given the "mold" to Jim so he could finish it.

 

[Muskrat]

Looking good Alan. Great thinking trimming the kevlar shy of the sheer. It will save you a lot of trouble. It's hard to get a nice looking sheer with the fuzzy kevlar. I wish I had done something similar on my last two builds. Unfortunately, the kevlar was the main structure of my hull. Two full layers of 9 oz for my guideboat. That was a bear to trim.

The pro build slow set is nice. I havent used their tropical formulation, but it would give you an incredible amount of working time. Last time I did four full layers and it was an all day affair. I had two shifts of helpers. One for laminating and the second set for the fill coats. I could have done the fills myself, but we end up turning boat building into a party with food and beer and campfires. You just have to trick your friends and family into helping.

 

[Alan Gage]

Last outside layer (s-glass) is on as well as peel ply. Now we wait.....

20160103_001 (1) by Alan, on Flickr

20160103_002 (1) by Alan, on Flickr

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

Why use fibreglass cloth with the kevlar and carbon? Why not just k and c?

 

[Alan Gage]

Why use fibreglass cloth with the kevlar and carbon? Why not just k and c?

Carbon has virtually no resistance to abrasion. So s-glass goes on the outside for it's excellent abrasion resistance. There are extra bias strips at the stems and I'll probably do a single layer of dynel at the stems too.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

I thought you could take the mold off the forms carefully and lay a sheet of plastic under it and but it back on the forms that way you wouldn't have to worry about leakage. Or a nice 6 oz layer on top would have worked nicely as a vacuum seal, and then you could've given the "mold" to Jim so he could finish it.

I'm still going to work on Alan about that mold !! I know he says he doesn't have much in that mold, but It's TOO nice to destroy !

I know the hull won't lift off the mold, but a simple cut on the outside of the stems, would make it easy to remove, leaving you with an easy seem to reseal !
A small piece of Kevlar felt on the inside, would add plenty of strength to the seam in the stems, and be pretty much invisible !

The Peel Ply looks good ! WAY better than mine ! You probably saved Peel Ply by cutting it side to side, and over lapping it ! Did you have help lying cloth layers on ? I was tied up this weekend with Ben's build. I would have been more than happy to come up and help !!!

Did you keep track of how much resin you used ?

I did save resin on Nokomis, by skipping the seal coat, But I'm not sure whether I saved any resin by doing the extra bottom layer at the same time, as the main layer.

Thanks for the insight as to multiple layers, and wetting them out !

Anxious to come up and see your progress !

Bet you'll have a hard time sleeping until you pull the Peel Ply off ! I know I did !

Looks Great !!!

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

The Peel Ply looks good ! WAY better than mine ! You probably saved Peel Ply by cutting it side to side, and over lapping it ! Did you have help lying cloth layers on ? I was tied up this weekend with Ben's build. I would have been more than happy to come up and help !!!

The peel ply was much easier to handle in the smaller pieces. Easy to place and easy to straighten out. Much better than when I tried doing the full sheet. I think there will be quite a few voids in the weave when I peel it off, I can see the air bubbles under the peel ply. Adding more epoxy on top of the peel ply and squeegeeing again probably would have done the trick but again the epoxy under the fiberglass was getting a little gooey and would not be forced through the peel ply; I had to work it all the way to the sheer. So I was leery of adding any more epoxy for fear it would get trapped down there as well and that I'd make it worse. But hopefully it will be better than not using any peel ply and it should do a good job of blending the cloth edges.

Didn't have any help laying the cloth but it went well. All the pieces were measured out and cut beforehand and then put in a tote in the order I'd need them. So just grab the piece of cloth on top and lay it out.

Did you keep track of how much resin you used ?

No, I didn't. I started out with 6 gallons of resin and have done the inside and outside of the stripper, the GP (10 layers on the bottom, 3 on the sides), and half of the Bloodvein (2 full layers and 3 partials). I don't think I have quite enough left to finish the second half of the Bloodvein. I'll order more tomorrow. I think I'll get some of the 820 series resin and hardener. Longer open time hardener is available and lower viscosity too. But that would also mean I'll have 3 different epoxies in the shop and all with different mixing ratios.....a disaster waiting to happen.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Pulled the peel ply today and am a bit disappointed. Apparently I got a little carried away with the squeegee and starved the layer of s-glass. Lots of pinholes in the weave and little air pockets.

20160104_006 by Alan, on Flickr

20160104_009 by Alan, on Flickr

I don't know if the problem is the resin, the peel ply, me, or, more likely, a combination of all three. This blue treated peel ply is a tighter weave (and impregnated with silicone I believe) and doesn't seem to let resin flow through it as easily as the white stuff. Probably not helped by the fact that this resin is a little thicker than I'm used to as well, especially by the time the cloth is wet out and the peel ply is placed. So I end up pushing harder with the squeegee to try and remove those air bubbles. This squeezes out a lot of resin, none of which is pushed through the peel ply. It's more like a little wave of resin under the peel ply that, once created, needs to be force all the way to the shear to let it ooze out.

Lower viscosity resin should be arriving tomorrow. Hopefully it will flow into those voids nicely and displace the air. Maybe I'll do some experimenting with patches of both types of peel ply on the hull with the new resin. Or maybe not. We'll see how I feel. Halfway tempted to vacuum bag the hull to try and suck out all the little air pockets but I don't think I'm feeling that ambitious or confident. Not sure if I have enough material on hand either.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

I had just a few pinholes, more like fish eyes with my Peel Ply . It was where I had wetted the two layers at once.
I used a black foam roller, instead of a squeegee on the Peel Ply. My Peel Ply didn't soak up hardly any resin. 2 oz from the entire hull.

Just a thought about filling those pin holes. When you roll on resin, you will have little air pockets in each one. In the past, I would remedy those air pockets with a hot Hair drier, after rolling resin on. Warming the hull, expands the air, in the pockets, I brush or roll it, and when it cools, the resin fills the holes.
There is a lot of holes there. A lower viscosity should help some. I'd have a heat source handy.

Good Luck !!!

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

There is a lot of holes there. A lower viscosity should help some. I'd have a heat source handy.
Jim

I certainly will, along with a squeegee to hopefully force the resin in and the air out.

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

[No message]

 

[Alan Gage]

Thankfully the fill coats did the job and (mostly) successfully filled the voids and pinholes. Really like the new resin (Adtech 820). It's the thinnest stuff I've ever used. Those voids sucked it right up without problem.

20160108_004 by Alan, on Flickr

20160108_005 by Alan, on Flickr

The stems, with multiple layers of s-glass, is where I still have a good case of the uglies. Those air pockets were completely encapsulated by resin so they weren't going anywhere. I have no desire to sand all that back off and start over so I think I'll just use black tinted epoxy to cover the dynell that will be added later.

20160108_006 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan