Solo expedition build

[Alan Gage]

Got absolutely no work done on the boat today and probably won't tomorrow either. But I did get it out for a test paddle this morning!


20150404_002 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Temporary seat and thwarts:


20150404_003 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

So far I'm very happy with it. Primary stability, at least when unloaded, feels just how I like it: a little loose but not squirelly and secondary feels very firm. Seems to be a good mix of tracking and maneuverability and it responded nicely to turning strokes and side slipping. Tried moving the seat forward and backward and the best spot seems to be right where the computer said it should be with the front edge of the seat about 3" behind station #8.

After paddling it solo for a while it was time to load up the dog to get her impressions:


20150404_004 by Alan Gage, on Flickr


20150404_005 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

She seems to approve.

Boat still handled well with the extra ~45 pounds of weight (28 for dog and 15 or so in the water bag placed in the stern for ballast). This is still about 100 pounds shy of the expected tripping load but that test will have to wait until the boat is finished.

I started with 8" of foam under the seat and while it felt a bit tender it was doable. Probably too high for sitting in dicey conditions. Dropped the foam thickness down to 6.5" towards the end and that felt very stable. I'll probably shoot for 7".

I stood up for a while as we were returning to shore and, while it is feels a bit tender, it's predictable and I didn't feel uncomfortable.

At this point I'm a very happy boy and am a bit more enthused about finishing it off so I can do some real paddling with it!

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

You aren't that much south of me, where is all your ice and snow?

 

[Jim Dodd]

You aren't that much south of me, where is all your ice and snow?

You need to vacation in Iowa for the Winter ! I never thought I'd say that ! Iowans go to Texas,Arizona and Florida for the Winter !

Jim

 

[Jim Dodd]

Alan

I've been tempted to do that same thing a few times ! I love your thwart setup ! You must be right handed !
Great way to locate seat location, and height !

What is the gunnel width ? The seat makes it look wide.

These days I tend to like my seats a little lower than I used to. Only drawback is it makes it harder to get this old carcass out of the canoe.

So the seat is only 3" aft of center ? I set mine 5-6" aft of center, even on my Asymetricals. Your hull design must be way different than mine.

I'll give you two thumbs up !

Jim

 

[memaquay]

Very cool! Sure s nice to see water!

 

[Robin]

Looks great, it's good to hear the positive first impressions.

 

[Mihun09]

You know, if you really want to be innovative, carve a pedestal seat from your foam blocks, wrap it in Carbon then put velcro on the boat bottom and seat for repositioning. Light weight, comfy and fully adjustable.

 

[Alan Gage]

You know, if you really want to be innovative, carve a pedestal seat from your foam blocks, wrap it in Carbon then put velcro on the boat bottom and seat for repositioning. Light weight, comfy and fully adjustable.

That's exactly what I'm thinking of doing, in a way. A narrow foam pedestal that can be kneeled around with a seat attached to the top. Since I never paddle without Sadie there is always extra weight along to act as ballast so a sliding seat isn't all that important since I can just move gear forward or backward to adjust. But when switching from sitting to kneeling it would be nice to move the seat back and up. So I'm thinking about a two tiered pedestal that will give me two seating positions. Forward and low for sitting and a few inches back and higher for kneeling. A single seat would move from tier to tier.

I've been rolling ideas around in my head of how to do it simply, functionally, and relatively easily without moving parts that could come loose or break. I'm hoping to spend some time playing with mock ups in the shop this week.

What is the gunnel width ? The seat makes it look wide.

Inside width of the bare hull is 26". The seat is from my Magic, which is a good deal narrower at the gunwales.

So the seat is only 3" aft of center ? I set mine 5-6" aft of center, even on my Asymetricals. Your hull design must be way different than mine.

I was surprised it was so far forward as well. While the hull below the water line is asymmetrical it's not as radical as many other boats.

Initially I set it up about 3" farther back but the bow felt very loose and the stern a little too sticky. Moving it ahead, to where the computer calculated, had it feeling much more balanced. Tracked better with the front not so loose and the stern responded better. Moving it farther ahead resulted in the bow sticking and the stern wandering.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Been a while. Not much happening. Friends visitings, to relatives for holiday, more friends, sick, and still debating what to do about a seat.

Spending lots of time looking at the boat and scratching my head, or, as my dad calls it, all stewin' and no doin'.

Have also been trying to touch up the mold I made for my future seat. Working on getting the finish closer to perfect and I'd better stop soon before I start making it worse.

Tonight I got tired of nothing happening so I did some sanding on the gunwales and added more epoxy so I can sand them again later. I'm afraid I'll have to add another layer of fiberglass tape over the top. I've sanded to and through the fiberglass in quite a few places and, as I'm quickly learning, carbon might be strong and stiff but it's not very abrasion resistant. I think I'll want a full layer of glass over top. I'll add that after another round of sanding has things smoothed out.

Alan

 

[Guest]

I've been rolling ideas around in my head of how to do it simply, functionally, and relatively easily without moving parts that could come loose or break. I'm hoping to spend some time playing with mock ups in the shop this week.

Maybe something like the old Perception saddle design

https://www.google.com/search?q=Per...2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ftid%3D1239;800;600

 

[Alan Gage]

Maybe something like the old Perception saddle design

https://www.google.com/search?q=Per...2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ftid%3D1239;800;600

Those are a neat looking design but I won't be going quite that far.

The biggest problem I'm encountering is that I'm primarily a sitter who wants the option of kneeling on occasion. A seat high enough to kneel (foot clearance) is too high to sit comfortably for long periods of time and a seat that's low enough to sit comfortably is impossible to get my feet under. Hence the original idea of a height adjustable pedestal I could kneel around.

I've gone through lots of ideas but once it comes to the implementation they either prove to be unworkable, impractical, too much work, or just too darned fiddly. If seated only I'd be happy with a fixed position but as soon as I drop down to kneel it messes up trim so I need the seat to slide back 6 inches or so. Right now I think I'll be going with a short sliding pedestal similar to what I put in my Kite. It will be narrow enough to kneel around and the height will be fixed in a low position. If I want extra height for kneeling I can carry extra foam or I can just deal with it.

20120717_004 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

It's worked out pretty well in the Kite. The biggest change will be that the proper position for sitting will be as far forward as the seat can go. I've got adjustment both forwards and backwards in the Kite which means when sitting in my normal position some of the pedestal extends forward of the seat. When having a relaxing paddle I like to pull my feet back and cross my legs. The pedestal sticking out interferes with that.

That will at least get me on the water and let me move forward with finishing the rest of the boat. It will be attached to the hull with fiberglass tape at the 4 corners so if I want to remove it later it will simply be a matter of cutting through the tape with an oscillating saw and sanding down the rough edges.

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

With your plan to do the Bloodvein both ways you will be sitting much of the time but you will have to kneel if doing any of the many rapids. Comfort should be the prime element with this in mind but adaptable in short time when required. The length of time it requires to fit the boat out to meet those needs shouldn't be a concern considering you plan to spend a month in the boat and the trip is still 3 plus months away. Stop rushing the build and get it right the first time.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I'm with Mihun !

Take your time and do it right . I speak from experience!

My concern about that sliding seat. I wouldn't want my shoe to get wedged, or hooked on it.

Here's an idea. What if you made a bench seat, that the front edge would lift, and fold back, thus pivoting on the back cross brace? That way you wouldn't have your feet under anything ?

Jim

 

[Canotrouge]

Why not some thing like this http://helmi-sport.eshop.t-online.de/Option-Adjustable-Web-Seat-for-Solo-Canoe

 

[Guest]

Why not some thing like this http://helmi-sport.eshop.t-online.de...for-Solo-Canoe

I have that system on my Wenonah Wilderness. Functionally it works, but it is awkward at best to adjust while in the canoe and rattles like an SOB on the roof racks (less so if you glue a chunk of minicel between the side of the plate hanger and the hull).

I never cared much for the Perception saddle, the sitting position was too high for me, although the dry storage was useful.

I firmly believe that seat comfort is king, dang near paramount in tripping boat outfitting, and that bit of comfort king is a dictated by personal physiology and need. Still, incorporating some under-seat dry storage or etc in a custom pedestal seat might be worthwhile.

Does anyone remember the old Bob Foote Grand Canyon saddle?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Bob+...g&ved=0CDcQ7Ak

Kinda whacky, and you gripped it with your knees like riding a horse (oh my aching groin), but it had some interesting design features – kneeling foot pedals, water bottle holders, Pelican box slot, throw bag holder, etc.

 

[Alan Gage]

My concern about that sliding seat. I wouldn't want my shoe to get wedged, or hooked on it.

That is one of my concerns. I seem to have plenty of room to get my feet out around the seat in the Kite but the seat I'll be using for this one is a bit wider. If it proves to be a hazard I can always use a narrower seat.

On a related note I finally got the mold to the point I was happy with it and laid up a carbon seat. Came out good. I was hoping to get by with 3 layers of 5.7oz carbon but it's still a bit flimsy. Probably take one more full layer with some scraps used as partials for area specific stiffening. It will have some aluminum or carbon tubing attached to the bottom as well which should help stiffen it up.

Here's an idea. What if you made a bench seat, that the front edge would lift, and fold back, thus pivoting on the back cross brace? That way you wouldn't have your feet under anything ?

I don't think I'm quite following you here. Pretty sure my feet will be back at least as far, if not farther, than the back edge of the seat, which would still leave clearance issues.

Why not some thing like this http://helmi-sport.eshop.t-online.de...for-Solo-Canoe

I've been kicking that idea around as well and I believe it's similar to what Wenonah uses. But, as Mike related in his experience, it seems to be almost universally disliked and not very adjustable "on the fly". It also doesn't have trim adjustment (fore/aft).

I just haven't been able to come up with a simple and functional design that would allow for a sliding and height adjustable seat. At least not one that would be quickly and easily adjustable while traveling in the boat. Every idea I've had either fails when I start drawing plans on paper or soon gets quite complex with potentially delicate moving parts or other pieces, like locking knobs, that would render the whole thing useless if they were to fall off and get lost in the field. Other ideas have seemed promising except for how to lock the seat firmly in place yet let me quickly change its position as required. Gravity, my weight, and a bungee cord would do the job under normal conditions but what about a sudden jarring (rock strike) that could knock me off balance and knock the seat loose or cause me to catch the seat wrong with my butt and pop it out of place at the worst possible time?

I've been using the sliding pedestal in my Kite for the last 3 years and it's worked fine. I can switch back and forth from sitting to kneeling by simply dropping to my knees. The low seat position isn't ideal for kneeling but it's doable and placing something like a spare lifejacket or throwable flotation device on the seat makes it comfortable for kneeling. It's a simple and effective design and, at this point, I haven't been able to come up with anything better. If, for whatever reason, it proves unworkable or I come up with a better idea it will be easy to remove and I'll have time to redo it before the trip.

Alan

 

[Guest]

I just haven't been able to come up with a simple and functional design that would allow for a sliding and height adjustable seat. At least not one that would be quickly and easily adjustable while traveling in the boat. Every idea I've had either fails when I start drawing plans on paper or soon gets quite complex with potentially delicate moving parts or other pieces, like locking knobs, that would render the whole thing useless if they were to fall off and get lost in the field. Other ideas have seemed promising except for how to lock the seat firmly in place yet let me quickly change its position as required.

JSaults had an interesting concept on a sitting/kneeling seat that eliminated all of the frou frou locking knobs and delicate likely to get lost pieces. His solution didn’t have a height adjustment, he just installed an extra long canted and custom contoured bench seat so that he could slide his seated body position fore or aft much further than on a standard 10 or 11 inch seat and still kneel in comfort.

He had enough seat depth to instantly change the trim by moving his body instead of finagling with the seat.

Still, a custom carbon seat pan shaped for your physiology would be hard to beat if you can figure out a non frou frou no-things-to-get-lost design.

For a wood frame bench seat the custom curves on the Conk seat are as close to ideal as anything I’ve seen.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Con...d.html%3Ffid%3Dadvice%26tid%3D1629358;640;402

 

[Momentum]

I'll throw my hat in the ring here...

Alan, what if you had a steel, or composite plate that hung from the gunwales that had a series of angled slots in it. I'm picturing 3 heights and a handful of fore and aft positions. The bracket that holds your actual seat could have captive bolts in it so as to not lose them in the water or on a trail.???

I can draw up a sketch if you want and post it.
I did something very similar with a piece of industrial furniture I designed a number of years ago. Different purpose, yes, but it allowed the shelves to be adjusted in height and angle , as well as forward location.

If this sounds like something intriguing please let me know

Momentum

 

[Canotrouge]

In my tandem that I some time use solo on trips or day use, I got a ww minicell foam pedestal, that I kneel from wile paddling solo into class II-III rapids, it is not glued in and it work really well. so I guess you could have you sitting seat removable or mounted in a way that you could flip it back (like a toilet seat) and put the pedestal where ever you need it to trim the boat well and down you go on more technical section of rivers!!

 

[Jim Dodd]

"Toilet seat" flip, was what I was thinking .

But it's hard to argue with a pedestal seat, for your application ! I think in the case of a capsize, it would be easiest to escape. #1 Priority !
Height adjustment ? I'd make it low, you can always raise it with a pad.

Making it sliding. In my thinking, (which is flawed often!) A single rail down the center, would be the easiest to adjust, as opposed to adjustment on each side. The pedestal could rest on the hull on the sides of the pedestal, that way spreading your weight out.

Your carbon layup can be stiffened from inside, easily enough with a variety of methods. Are you thinking of making the pedestal, water tight ?

Jim