Solo expedition build

[Alan Gage]

Had a pretty light day lined up for the boat. Just mill the gunwale profile, glue them into place, and then cleanup shop and relax. You'd think by now I'd know that gunwales never go as quickly as I think they will.

First order of business was opening my thwart and deck that I'd left in the vacuum bag overnight:


20150322_001 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

The thwart is a winner! I'm using heavy weight carbon sleeving (something like 18oz/yard) over 7/8" thick foam and it's incredibly stiff and weighs only 3 oz. The carbon deck over 1/4" foam I'm not so sure about. It's 5.7oz carbon on one side with fiberglass on the other. It's not very stiff and even the side with the carbon feels pretty soft when pushing on it with finger tips. It will probably work for the front face of the float tank but for the deck I think I'll need to go with thicker foam or thin wood.

I made some more test profiles for gunwales to see how they looked and felt in the hand. I finally got it narrowed down to three:


20150322_003 by Alan Gage, on Flickr


20150322_005 by Alan Gage, on Flickr


20150322_006 by Alan Gage, on Flickr


20150322_007 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

I ended up going with this one at 1 3/16" wide.


20150322_010 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Still beefy, feels good in the hand, composites should wrap around it nicely and will hopefully do a decent job of draining water. Pretty pedestrian shape with a 1/2" round over on the bottom and 3/8" on top. But at 1 3/16" wide the 1/2" round over starts right where it meets the hull, which I like.

Milling the gunwales went fine but when I tried to test fit them there was a problem many of you can probably see coming. The single piece gunwales REALLY didn't want to conform to the last couple feel of the hull on either end. Too much rise and too much curve. What to do, what to do?

I could try and rig up some way to steam them in place or else steam them off the canoe and make up a little jig to bend the last few feet. That would work but would involve a fair amount of setup and would push back installing gunwales for a couple days.

Then I thought there's really no reason to use single piece gunwales other than to save having to use 1,258 clamps/side to hold them in place while the glue sets. So I could simply run that saw kerf in the center all the way through and have separate inwales and outwales which should easily make the curve.

I was all set to do just that when I realized all I really need to do is have separate inwales and outwales at the ends of the boat, the center can stay single piece. So it was back to the table saw where I ran that kerf all the way through the gunwale 2' on each end. This gave me, well, it's probably easier to show than explain:


20150322_008 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Those two boards in the bow are the inwales that were cut off and will be glued and clamped into place separately. Since the whole thing will be covered with carbon fiber it doesn't matter if there's a big ugly joint in the inwales.

After lots of tedious spreading of thickened epoxy, wiping up drips, clamping the inwales and outwales on the ends and wiping some more drips, and readjusting the clamps and wiping up some more drips and getting the thickened fillet in the corners just right for the 8th time and finally wiping up a couple more drips it was done. The separate inwales and outwales at the ends easily conformed to the hull but it was still a pain in the butt dealing with them.


20150322_009 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

So much for a relaxing day cleaning the shop. It's now considerably messier than when I started and I'm pooped but happy to have this part of the job done. Always feels like crossing a big hurdle once the gunwales are on.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Vacuum bagging ! I've pondered this for many years ! Saves big time, on resin, but the money put into bagging supplies, more than makes up for it.
The weight savings is the real issue !

The biggest benefit for me is being able to keep the laminate in place on curved objects where it would normally want to peel away. I've never seen savings in terms of resin use. I still apply the same amount, or maybe even more, knowing the vacuum bag will suck the excess away. The vacuum pump would seem to be the biggest expense. The bags, peel ply, and breather fabric are pretty cheap.

What did you use for a vacuum pump ?

I work at an auto repair shop so when we got a new vacuum pump for AC work and the old one was just sitting around gathering dust it found it's way to my shop. That's where I borrow that nice digital scale for weighing canoes and canoe related accessories as well.

Do you have a Keystone distributor near you? They provide aftermarket LKQ autobody paints and body work supplies.
A base coat/clear coat sounds like it could work for you, or maybe just the clear coat.
Actually, any autobody supply could provide you with a low cost (relatively) solution.

That's a good idea, I'll look into it. We have a couple suppliers at work that deal heavily in automotive paint and I should be able get it for cost. Didn't you spray your Kite with automotive clear coat? Can any of that be brushed or is it spray only? How's it holding up?

My daughter and SIL moved into their new home yesterday, taking with them all of SIL's vacuum bagging supplies...I guess I have to commit and get my own stuff now.
Where did you get your peel ply and bagging supplies?

I've gotten it from a few different places. Lately I've been using Express Composites for everything I can because they're out of Minneapolis, which means standard shipping is overnight. Seems like a real nice place and they're knowledgeable and happy to help. Prices seem slightly higher than RAKA but only marginally so, like a few bucks/order. You have to call or e-mail your orders but it's pretty painless. I've also gotten them from Raka and US Composites.

I just got new supplies in this week in preparation for the gunwales and ordered the stretchy bag material thinking it might help keep the laminate pressed tight in the corners. I'm a bit anxious to see how that goes....

Alan

 

[stripperguy]

Alan
My clear coat is holding up quite well, like any autobody finish would...long after I posted I remembered that you work at a dealership. Those autobody supplies would be easy to come by. I sprayed my clear coat, you have to keep the wet line moving right along, I'm not so sure brushing would work too well.

And the gunnels, yeah...that vertical rise and the height of the gunnel section really work against each other, don't they?! Remember about that height/strength cubic relation? I intentionally keep the kerf deep and vertical height smaller for just the reason you found. Also, most of my hulls (not the Kite) have fairly straight sheer lines, partially to make the gunnel install easier, or at least practical.

I'm anxious to see those gunnels all black, modern looking and strong...should be a great combination of strength, practicality, and aesthetics.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Alan, I really like the profile you chose for your gunnels ! I masked off the area just below the gunnels, and you may have to ? That helped clean the drips.

Thanks for the info on vacuum bagging ! Love the thwart !

I'm finding these composites don't quite live up to my expectations as far as stiffness and abrasion resistence. I understand now why the commercial builders apply so many layers of cloth to their hulls.

Anxious to see the completed gunnels, so far, they are cool ! Traditional trim adds so much weight to a hull ! My seats alone are 2# heavier than commercial web seats.

Speaking of seats ! What do you have in mind ? Any backrest incorporated ? The older I get, the more like backrests !


Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

You guys probably think I do these updates and post these pictures just for you but they really help me as well. I'd about given up on an idea but when I downloaded pictures from the camera I suddenly saw a possibility on the computer screen I couldn't see in real life standing next to the canoe. Funny how that happens but it does quite often.

Pondering decks and float tanks tonight. I had to have something in place to help with visualization so I cut some foam roughly to shape. All along I've wanted to have the carry handles integrated with the decks and, while I've come up with some ideas, they either seem much too complicated or big on aesthetics but low on function. I was ready to give up and put in a regular boring handle but I think I have an idea now for something to try out tomorrow. I don't think I can explain it so if it works I'll take a picture.


20150323_001 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Still a little unsure on the material for the decks and float tanks but I'm leaning pretty heavily towards foam and carbon. But I don't want big black decks soaking up the heat so I'll probably paint them to match the hull. Maybe with a pair of black carbon pinstripes showing through down the center?

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

I forgot to update the weight the other night.

After sanding the outside of the hull I was down to 35.5 pounds. I weighed the gunwales before installing them and they were 3 pounds even so we should be sitting at 38.5 pounds right now. I'm curious to see how much two layers of carbon and one layer of fiberglass over the gunwales adds.

Alan

 

[Momentum]

Still a little unsure on the material for the decks and float tanks but I'm leaning pretty heavily towards foam and carbon. But I don't want big black decks soaking up the heat so I'll probably paint them to match the hull. Maybe with a pair of black carbon pinstripes showing through down the center?

Alan[/QUOTE]


Ooooh racing stripes. I like it.

What about allowing the deck to overhang the wall of the float tank to create a small area for fingers. This could act as a hand hold without adding extra weight or even other parts to make.

 

[Alan Gage]

What about allowing the deck to overhang the wall of the float tank to create a small area for fingers. This could act as a hand hold without adding extra weight or even other parts to make.

That was my original thought and it could still happen but I feel the handle needs to be there for more than carrying or pulling the canoe forward. Sometimes you need to pull the canoe backwards as well so it needs to be something that can be easily grabbed from either direction. With thicker foam it would probably be easy enough to carve a handle out of the extended deck so there would be more than just ledge. Nicely wrapping it in carbon could be tricky. Definitely more playing to do tomorrow....and probably the next day as well.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

I cut flotation paddles out of 1/2" Pink foam on my Kevlar. Covered them with left over RAKA 9oz Kevlar to match the hull.
I may also have covered the back side of the foam with some 6oz, and just a wetout coat.
Bought the DNR license, for the Kevlar today. I'll SWEET talk the wife into picking up numbers at the Sign shop tomorrow in Ft Dodge ! Gotta Love that Woman !

Need to put some stress on that hull to see if it holds up !

Alan, Is the plan to paint the inside ?

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

Who would have believed a simple piece of foam in a table saw could ruin a $65 blade and $80 cartridge?


20150324_001 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Well when the saw is a Sawstop and the foam is covered with foil you have a problem. When something conductive, like foil, touches your blade and finger at the same time it's the same as the blade touching your finger directly, at least as far as the saw is concerned. So the cartridge trips and you get to spend $140 and kick yourself for being so stupid. I knew it would be a problem and disabled the system when I cut some the other day. Tonight I didn't. My mind was elsewhere apparently.

The curved part of the cartridge shown above (with the blade buried in it) is normally about 1/16" away from the blade during normal operation. When skin contact is detected the cartridge blows and forces the aluminum block into the blade. At the same time the saw blade is pulled below the deck. I believe the momentum of the suddenly stopping blade is what pulls it below the deck so fast.

I figured a few teeth would rip through the aluminum block before it stopped but you can see here that the tooth just above the block appears to be unscathed. Pretty incredible how little rotation of the blade there was after contact.


20150324_004 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Here's a view from the other side:


20150324_002 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

And how did the foam fair through this little ordeal? I had to look pretty close to find any damage:


20150324_005 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

It's that little knick just in from the edge. Doesn't look like the foam was even touched, it just plucked a piece of foil from the paper backing.

So, as you can see, it was a very unproductive night on the canoe. But I guess it's nice to know the saw works as designed and that if it had been my finger I'd still have it.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

Wow ! Was that a 10" blade? Or a 7 1/4" ?
No blood spilled anyway ! It's always good to stand back, and still count 10 fingers !

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

It was a standard 10" blade.

Alan

 

[Canotrouge]

"Tonight I didn't. My mind was elsewhere apparently."

That is when it is a good idea to call it a day, and move on to some thing else, that doesn't involve power tools!! Glad you didn't get hurt!!

 

[Alan Gage]

Just to clarify I was nowhere close to being injured. My hand was at least a foot away from the blade when it happened. I knew that stuff was trouble as soon as it showed up in the shop but I thought I could remember to disable the safety feature on the saw every time I cut it. Should have known better.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

Wow ! Was that a 10" blade? Or a 7 1/4" ?
No blood spilled anyway ! It's always good to stand back, and still count 10 fingers !

Jim

Yeah after I looked closer, I saw it was a 10".
That still is an amazing feature on a saw !

Jim

 

[oldschool]

Attempting to rip wet lumber or foil covered insulation board with a Saw Stop starts to get expensive. I just have to remember to use the bypass switch. Hopefully other saw manufacturers will develope their own finger saving brakes.

 

[Alan Gage]

I wasn't really expecting to do any work on my gunwales tonight but it just sort of started happening. Cleaned off table space to roll out and cut the large pieces that will be needed for the vacuum bag and then I decided that since I had the table cleaned off I might as well start cutting them out. Since I'm on a roll why not cut the cloth to length and put tacky tape on the hull as well. I got everything prepared to do the first side and had a really hard time convincing myself not to just go ahead and wet it all out. But it was getting late and I had just enough restraint to wait until tomorrow.

Tacky taped hull inside and out:


20150325_001 by Alan Gage, on Flickr


20150325_002 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

The release tape will be pulled off as the last step before sealing the bag.

Here's a dry run showing how the vacuum bag process is supposed to work.

First you wet out and place the fabric:


20150325_004 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Over the top of that goes a release film or peel ply. This is in direct contact with the resin and is treated so that it won't stick. It will leave a nice smooth surface once pulled off.....hopefully. It's hard to see but this one has lots and lots of little holes poked in it so that excess resin can be squeezed out of the laminate.


20150325_005 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Next layer is the breather fabric. This soaks up the excess resin that will get squeezed through those little holes in the peel ply and also allows air movement throughout the sealed bag. This is soft, fuzzy, and relatively thick (compared to the thin plastic). It's like batting that would go in a quilt and I think that's what some people actually use.


20150325_006 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

And then finally, overtop of everything, goes the bag material. It will be pressed up against the tacky tape and is supposed to create an air tight seal.


20150325_007 by Alan Gage, on Flickr

Somewhere in this bag material I'll insert a vacuum fitting that will be connected to a vacuum pump. Once turned on it will draw all the air out of the bag and pull it into a vacuum, which means atmospheric pressure is now forcing everything tight against the substrate to squeeze out the excess resin and keep it tightly conformed to any curves and corners.

Notice that earlier I said "supposed to create an air tight seal." In my limited experience with vacuum bagging actually attaining a perfectly sealed bag is very difficult. Inevitably the bag material wrinkles where it touches the tacky tape and creates a small air leak. So you're constantly going around the perimeter trying to hear the tiny vacuum leaks and then tugging and pulling and pushing on the bag material and tacky tape to try and create a perfect seal. This will be by far the biggest thing I've ever tried to bag and it could get pretty interesting....and tense.

Hopefully I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow!

Alan

 

[Muskrat]

Awesome. Can't wait for the bagging. Good luck with the seal.

 

[Canotrouge]

Wow, I'm really exited to see the outcome!!
Good luck with it!!

 

[Jim Dodd]

You're are really moving right along ! Looks great !

Was just wondering, If you considered using this hull as a plug for a Kevlar hull ?

Jim