Larger Canoe: Tumblehome or Not

[PaddleTime]

Hey guys,

I’m in the market for a large (17.5-18.5’ or so) canoe for 3 paddlers and gear. I see one defining feature between manufacturers is tumblehome or flare. Some manufacturers offer tumblehome only on smaller models.

I see “shouldered tumblehome” being offered as the best of both worlds, but not too many options out there in epoxy which is also how I am leaning.

In any event, in a canoe of this size / for this use curious if you’d prefer tumblehome or flare all else being equal?

Thanks!

 

[Alan Gage]

but not too many options out there in epoxy which is also how I am leaning.

I have no input on the tumblehome issue I wouldn't be too concerned about the type of resin used. Better to choose a canoe that suits your needs.

Alan

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks, based on previous research it seems epoxy may be the lesser toxic of the two when cured, and everybody seems to think it makes a better canoe as well, so have been leaning that route.

Seeing a few out there, some flared, some with traditional tumblehome and then a couple from Swift with the higher tumblehome. Those include the new Lavieille, although not sure 17.5’ would be the best for 3 and gear although it looks to carry its width more to the ends compared to the 18.5s I’ve been looking at.

 

[Benson Gray]

My general advice is to not struggle with finding the perfect canoe for a new purchase. Pick something in the general category that meets most of your needs and go paddling. It can also be helpful to attend a few canoe events and try out a broad variety of different canoes. You will soon discover what you like and what you don't. Then you can start looking for a canoe that has more of what you want and less of what you don't want. Bart Hauthaway was a canoe and kayak designer who used to say that you don't get in and out of small boats, you wear them. Therefore, what fits me may not fit you and vice versa.

Tumblehome can be good for stability but I wouldn't worry too much about that either. The page below describing it is from a 1919 Kennebec Canoe catalog. I have canoes with and without tumblehome but have never found either style to be a problem.

The toxicity of epoxy and other materials is primarily an issue for the people making canoes and generally not a problem for canoe users. I would not encourage anyone to eat any canoe.

You may also want to increase the length that you will consider. Three large adults and a lot of gear may require a 20 foot canoe or larger. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do,

Benson

 

[Alan Gage]

Thanks, based on previous research it seems epoxy may be the lesser toxic of the two when cured, and everybody seems to think it makes a better canoe as well, so have been leaning that route.

You may be right but I've never heard of anyone having a problem with any type of cured resin either in terms of toxicity or strength/reliability although I'm sure there is plenty of marketing that would attempt to make you think otherwise.

It's easy to overthink canoe buying, especially when you don't have a lot of experience with it. Don't get too hung up on the details and, like Benson suggested, buying used is often your best bet. Especially when starting out.

Alan

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks guys, I would agree @Benson Gray that eating the canoe would be a bad idea although I definitely do plan on having everyone in it. I don’t think any of these resins are that great but from the data I’ve seen, based on what I’ve seen in the SDS information etc., and after talking with manufacturers I’m personally a bit more comfortable going the epoxy route in that regard. That said to top it off I understand epoxy is better on other performance anyway - strength etc.

Noted on the length. I just mocked up a 17.5 and we’d fit with gear, and be under the suggested weight range, but I guess more space can be nice and perhaps handling loaded.

On tumblehome however essentially what it comes down to is I have a few canoes on the shortlist that are pretty much the same width / weight / length / all are Kevlar epoxy, etc. - there really aren’t many drastic differences on paper, but having tumblehome or flare is one of the things that stands out. It is likely I’ll have to buy without a test paddle. One builder is even telling me they can add tumblehome if I want or leave it flared. Thus, without having tried a tumblehome canoe (I have paddled flared) curious if this is something you guys would go for especially considering it’s a bigger canoe with 3 paddlers etc…

 

[Benson Gray]

One builder is even telling me they can add tumblehome if I want or leave it flared.

This may change the hull shape in ways that you might not want. Tumblehome can be added to most hulls by simply shortening the thwarts and seats. This commonly reduces the rocker as well, and may even hog the hull in an extreme case. My experience is that the shape of the hull below the waterline is generally much more important than anything above it. I would encourage you to consider this carefully.

Benson

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like a less than ideal scenario for sure. I guess I’m just not sure if tumblehome (built-in from the ground up) would be a pro or a con. From what I’ve read flare is better with waves and stability while tumblehome helps paddling ease / efficiency. But it sounds like tumblehome could reduce stability if you leaned past the widest part or possibly interfere with loading / interior space.

 

[memaquay]

Might help if you could tell us which particular canoe models you are looking at. Putting three people in a canoe might not go over the weight specs, but it might not be ideal either. We routinely ran 3 people to a canoe with grumman white water 17 footers, but two of the paddlers were usually fly weight kids, around 120 or 130 each, and one sat low in the centre and didn't paddle.

Personally, I have two 20 foot canoes that have been used often for three people. They provide a level of sea worthiness and comfort that wouldn't be found in in smaller canoes. Canoe hull shapes matter too, probably more than just looking at flare or tumblehome An 18 foot traditionally shaped prospector would feel a lot more secure with three than a modern asymmetrical hull with a narrow bow line.

 

[gumpus]

I think you have to look at all the key design parameters of a canoe in relation to your specific goals for the boat.

In general you may want tumblehome or shouldered flare if the person in the middle will be paddling because it makes the boat narrower and allows the paddler to come closer to proper vertical paddle strokes. Fully flared boats are wider and at some point become awkward to paddle (for example a Swift Temagami sucks to paddle from the middle). It's especially relevant in a big canoe. On the other hand I have a fully flared boat that is plenty narrow because it's a low volume boat and for me it's ffasterand more efficient than my Wenonah solo with massive tumblehome because it's much narrower with much less skin friction since it's smaller.

Tumblehome should not hamper loading or entry/exit at all. You have to step into the middle of any canoe. Wenonahs typically have a lot of primary stability but lack secondary stability so you'll swim if you try to lean them 45 degrees but they also resist leaning due to the primary stability so may feel better to many paddlers most of the time like folks that never kneel. For big water like the Great Lakes Wenonahs aren't the best choice but experienced paddlers do just fine in the boundary waters even in high wind.

For versatility and all around performance I'd go for (and usually paddle) boats with shouldered flare. They have no downside IMO. If you want massive stability you choose one with a higher waterline width. So personally I like the Northstar 18 or 20 much more than the Minnesota II or III for your needs but other paddlers may prefer the Wenonahs based on their own priorities and experiences.

I think epoxy (vs vinylester) is a positive in general but I personally would never compromise on the design just to get epoxy...for example a Souris River does indeed do well by deforming going over rocks but in general their designs have fallen pretty far behind manufacturers like Swift or Northstar in terms of basic performance.

==> just my opinions

 

[ppine]

I look for flare in the hull of large canoes. The Sawyer Charger at 18.5 feet, 34 inch beam and 15 inches deep was hard to beat. It has plenty of rocker. I have never paddled a canoe I liked better. The 222 is good. Plenty of other boats around that are capable I just haven't paddled them before. I offer this dimensions as a guide for a great all around boat. Some of the big Wenonahs might work best for 3 people.

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks guys - @memaquay as I’m looking for a canoe that will mostly work well for lake tripping multi-day type adventures with 3 people as well as fishing on lakes with 2, I had almost ruled out Prospector models (my understanding is they are more suited for moving water). In regards to moving water I’m thinking short lake to lake class 1 type stuff or class 1 rivers only, perhaps very short class 2 rarely. However stability is a big need, was I mistaken to look past them? I see H2O Canoe has an 18.5’ Prospector. Altogether with gear I think we’d be at about 650-700lbs.

Some of the other canoes I’ve been looking at are asymmetrical (H20 Outfitter 18.5’, Swift Keewaydin 18.6, Lavieille 17.6). To round out the list I’ve been checking out there is the symmetrical hand laid Nighthawk Canoes Pegasus 18.5’ and the Savage River Voyageur 18.5’. I’m looking at Kevlar whichever route. As far as I can tell only the Nighthawk has a traditional tumblehome with the Swifts having shouldered. All others are flared I think although not 100% sure on the Prospector.

@gumpus the middle seat will definitely need to be a paddler (may be me since I have the most reach), would moving over to the side (and counter balancing with people / gear) help to alleviate any paddling discomfort? This is kind of why I started this thread but shouldered tumblehome big epoxy canoes are few and far between. All I can seem to find is the Keewaydin 18.6 (which seems like a narrower speed type boat to me…I’m looking for a big stable canoe, slower is ok) and their new Lavieille 17.6, which seems like a better shape / width for what we’re looking for but is only 17.5’.

@ppine curious why you like flare on these bigger canoes?

Appreciate everyone’s input.

 

[Keeled Over]

So what decade were you planning on taking your first trip? LOL.

Seriously, I really think you just need to go out and paddle. Many people currently paddle canoes that, like a stray animal, just showed up. And many of those canoes, without the benefit of data sheets and tumblehome calculations ended up being some of our favorites.

This reminds me of people learning to fish for steelhead. Time and money spent on books, videos, perfect rods, balanced lines, perfect rain gear. And they never catch a steelhead. What they must not have known is that you can get the zebco, put a red and white bobber on it, and add a worm. Presto! Steelhead. The only time I can't catch a steelhead is when I don't make a cast. Same applies here - just paddle!

You don't still need to get paddles and PFD's, do you?

 

[PaddleTime]

Not sure I’m completely following you there @Keeled Over … these canoes aren’t cheap, currently have no canoe, and looking to make the best long term investment that I can. Tumblehome is one part of the equation and some of the canoes I’ve been looking at are very close, save things like these smaller design tweaks. I’m not a go out and buy the one that’s in my favorite color type of guy.

 

[SouthernKevlar]

Not sure I’m completely following you there @Keeled Over … these canoes aren’t cheap, currently have no canoe, and looking to make the best long term investment that I can. Tumblehome is one part of the equation and some of the canoes I’ve been looking at are very close, save things like these smaller design tweaks. I’m not a go out and buy the one that’s in my favorite color type of guy.

To keep the costs down, consider a used canoe. Some great buys pop up on Craigslist and Facebook marketplace, especially if you don't mind a scratch or two on the bottom. You will get your canoe scratched anyway, unless it is a garage queen, so why not save half the cost and let someone else have the pleasure (?) of making that first scrape on a rock. I don't know what part of the USA you are in, but there is a nice Wenonah Champlain UL for sale on FM in South Carolina for $2800.

Oh, and the toxicity problem: Don't Worry! You will get more toxins from the off-gassing in your car driving to the put-in than you will in a canoe out in the open air.

 

[PaddleTime]

Thanks. I’m leaning new just to get what I’m looking for, I’m not sure how often a used ~18.5, epoxy, foam core, etc. etc. canoe (and I’m not looking for a project) would come up and cost to go get it might not be worth it. I think I’m buy once cry once on this one. And you might be right on the car, just like to make the best choice I can if I’m buying something and then not worry about it from there on out. For me it’s a buying factor on the list is all. Appreciate the input.

 

[Jim Dodd]

In my personal experience. Tumblehome is great for a Solo canoe.
Not as beneficial in a tandem.

Flare, adds buoyancy when heading into waves. It also makes a bouncy ride, and a loss of momentum.

Shouldered tumble home is fine, but tougher to build in a stripper. Regular tumblehome, is easier to build, and just as effective
.
My opinion, based on my experience.

Jim

 

[Gamma1214]

What part of the US is "home" for you? Maybe there's someone here that's close enough to let you test paddle a few hulls prior to purchase (?)

 

[Jmharrick]

I’m not sure how often a used ~18.5, epoxy, foam core, etc. etc. canoe (and I’m not looking for a project) would come up and cost to go get it might not be worth it

I know a lot of outfitters sell off their fleets at the end of the season. A lot of times they perform any necessary repairs before doing so. You may even find some boats still for sale right now. Where are you located?

Outfitters tend to carry the big wenonah’s and souris river queticos. They will have seen some abuse, but you can get them for a big discount and likely sell them easily if you decide it isn’t the right boat for you.

I personally just ordered a Souris River Quetico 18.5 new without paddling one. I’m not very close to any of the big outfitters. I need a larger boat for my family to take on trips, and my kids aren’t big enough for us to take two separate canoes yet. My mad river explorer with “custom” bench 3rd seat works for day trips, but I plan to try to squeeze myself, wife, 4 yr old, and 3 yr old twins plus gear into the quetico for some short multi-day trips next year. We’ll see what happens.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I'll echo the suggestion to shop used. I think it's a rare individual who manages to choose "one and done" for their first canoe...... unless they just don't expect much out of it.

But anyway - on a tandem, I couldn't care less one way or the other if it has tumblehome. And the same for the resin. Those are two things that matter not at all. In a solo, I do like some tumblehome, but not having it isn't a deal killer.

More important things are the hull shape below the waterline, rocker (how much and where), and flare.

Weight and resistance to impacts should be a consideration related to price, where you will paddle, and how much you're willing to carry.

We might be more helpful if you could give us the particular models you're looking at, and we can tell you more or less what to expect from them. You've made a good start by ruling out the Prospector designs for lakes and class 1. Not that they won't be usable for that, but not ideal.

I agree that you're overthinking it. Among the higher end brands, there aren't any "bad" canoes. And unless you're race-tuned paddlers, you aren't going to feel a lot of difference between canoes of similar length, width, and construction.