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First build 17' Freedom

Oh boy now i dont kow what to do about the indside. I kind of like the idea of no fill coat, just cause its a bit liless weight and work. My epoxy is uv resistant so not too much to worry about that, although i will probably varnish the outside so it looks nice.

I am going to cut my boat to the gunnels before we lay on the carbon copy. The plan is to use boat shrink wrap and some partal mold release wax. Likely two layers of carbon the two 6oz layers of glass on the outside with a s glass football. Any thoughts?

Sorry Ben about the confusion of glassing the inside ! Either way you go will be fine !

I used one layer of Kevlar, in place of one of your carbon layers. The nice thing about this method, is you can add more to the inside, if needed ! Sounds like a good plan !
The Freedom doesn't have much for tumblehome, so plastic release should work great !

Jim
 
Jim i apologize for my ignorance but why couldnt you build up with a carbon layer just like a kevlar layer? Is there something I am missing?
 
Decisions, decisions...

If weight is a major concern don't do a fill coat and at least varnish the inside with a few coats as a buffer for minor scratches. It was very surprising during my build, how quickly "she" will put on the pounds as you add more epoxy. I weighed my hull before I glasses the inside, and almost cried when I weighed it after fill coats on the inside....

I think there is a build thread on this site where the specific weights of the various materials used for building boats is discussed. I found it very informative. It may have been SG's carbon copy kite build....


Sounds like your layup schedule should be solid. Have you thought about adding foam ribs or a core to the carbon copy?
 
I have seen the build weights that younare talking about, think someone posted earlier on this thread too. I am worried about the weight that is slowly getting added on. This morning i did the very scientific lift the strongback at one end test and thought to myself, well that feels light, as i mentally calculated how much weight the strong back is. I have a very good feeling that when we pull the boat off i will thik twice about how light the boat is.

For now we are not putting any ribs/foam in, just going to see what happens. Most likely we will habe to put something in, thinking about divinicel (sp?) Seems like that is the stuff to use.
 
Sven i have been a bit worried about my canoes weight gain over time too. I did the not so super scientific lifting of one end of the strongback and felt that it was "pretty light". I have a feeling that when we take the boat off my opinions will change pretty quick.

Right now our plan is no foam or ribs but i suspect that we may have to put something in to stiffen it up. Will probably go with divinicel if needed
 
Jim i apologize for my ignorance but why couldnt you build up with a carbon layer just like a kevlar layer? Is there something I am missing?
No apology needed ! Asking questions improves your chances of learning something !
Carbon is great for adding stiffness, but it's not as tough as kevlar. Carbon is easy to cut, kevlar is Not.

Another thing to remember is to build using full layers, while you are working on top of you hull.
You can add reinforcements to the inside, once you remove the hull from the plug, if needed.
I used 1/8" cedar for reinforcing the football area of Vader.
Stripperguy used Foam. He was happy with it !

Jim
 
Oh boy now i dont kow what to do about the indside. I kind of like the idea of no fill coat, just cause its a bit liless weight and work. My epoxy is uv resistant so not too much to worry about that, although i will probably varnish the outside so it looks nice.

I am going to cut my boat to the gunnels before we lay on the carbon copy. The plan is to use boat shrink wrap and some partal mold release wax. Likely two layers of carbon the two 6oz layers of glass on the outside with a s glass football. Any thoughts?

Ben,
If you do decide on the double carbon, double 6 oz layup, let me share my experience with my carbon copy.

I had my existing boat fully finished, the gunnels were definitely in the way...

My crease and the very stiff carbon didn't play well together. I attempted to force the carbon to replicate all of the crease by using clothes pins on the wet carbon. No dice, as those pesky gunnels got in the way again. And I didn't have the right clamps to do the job.

It was very difficult to see when the carbon was fully wetted out, in fact, I did have some resin starved spots that needed more resin after parting the shell and plug.

If I were to do this again (here's where you come in) I would do the double 6 oz first. Easy to see when it's fully wetted out, and it will conform to nearly any hull feature. Then, I (or maybe you) would remove the shell from the plug and add the carbon to the inside. That way (ok, I'll stop now) I could see clearly when the inside carbon is wet enough, and I could control the final texture.

Of course, it's your build, but if you can benefit from my struggles, so much the better.

Also, I did add some 1/8" Divinycell foam, and some more carbon over the top of the foam. It added an incredible amount of stiffness! However, I do believe that I could have used some more 6 oz on top of the foam and still had adequate stiffness. I did quite a bit of modeling of the various layups, and that last layer of carbon was redundant. Further, the 1/8" foam sandwiched between double layers of 6 oz glass will do far more to improve the stiffness than 2 full layers of carbon. Or so says the 3D modeling stress analysis software. (Don't tell anyone, but I do plan to do an all glass and foam layup next year once I figure out the technique)

Lastly, weight, for me, is a pretty big concern. I am getting older and weaker as the years hang on me. Unfortunately my 61 year old body can't hold up to my ambitions. My psyche is still 30 years old!! I still do carry for up to 5 miles on maintained trails, and up to 2 miles bushwhacking with a canoe overhead, so I either have to go lighter or I don't go at all!
 
Well it has been a while since i have posted. Having a baby really changes the amount of shop time one gets, and that is not a bad thing in this case. I have been helping my friend with a CF copy of the freedom. Last night we got the last layers of glass on the boat and now are just waiting for everything to cu
 
Here are two of the pics with the carbon on. Dont judge the bow/stren those will get shaped up before she gets to the water :)
 

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Curious what your friend used for a release between the mold and hull?

Oh and any other details !
For most of us, me included, this process is fairly new !

Jim
 
+1 on Jims curiosity :) What is the layup schedule, rib/core plan, gunwales, etc? So many options with any boat, especially composites. Love to see how everyone has different styles.
 
Well we are kind of winging it with the construction. The lay up from inside to outside is 6oz e glass, 5.7 carbon, 5.7 carbon. 6oz e glass then 6 oz s glass football. My buddies hope is to not have any ribs or core, i dont know if that is going to work but we will see. The gunnels are going to be cherry, dont quite know how we are going to do the seats, maybe clear system? We are using boat shrink wrap (the blue stuff they wrap boats with for winterization) we are going to pull the plug off tonight and hopefully everything will go as planned :) will see how it comes off the composite boat. The ends around the gunnels seem to have come off my boat pretty good
 
Well we are kind of winging it with the construction. The lay up from inside to outside is 6oz e glass, 5.7 carbon, 5.7 carbon. 6oz e glass then 6 oz s glass football. My buddies hope is to not have any ribs or core, i dont know if that is going to work but we will see.

From experience I can say with quite a bit of confidence that won't be enough. I built a composite tandem using no core or ribs and, if I remember correctly, have 9 layers (carbon, kevlar, and glass) covering the bottom of the hull and it still wants to oil can a little when empty. A rounder hull shape would help. Not sure how ours compare in that regard.

Stiffer materials no doubt help but what's really needed is thickness, and it takes a lot of layers of cloth to get there.

Alan
 
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That is great information to hear. I have been nicely urging my buddy that we may need more beef in there, maybe this will be the ticket. He wants to keep the price down so maybe we will do a cedar inlay, i think Jim did this on one of his composites. I kind of want to try the foam but cost may be a factor there
 
That is great information to hear. I have been nicely urging my buddy that we may need more beef in there, maybe this will be the ticket. He wants to keep the price down so maybe we will do a cedar inlay, i think Jim did this on one of his composites. I kind of want to try the foam but cost may be a factor there

I recently watched a video on how Souris River builds their canoes. Only 3 layers plus ribs. Of course they didn't tell the weight of the cloth so those 3 layers might be considerably thicker than the standard 6oz stuff we're usually using. But foam ribs might do the trick without as much expense.

Alan
 
That is great information to hear. I have been nicely urging my buddy that we may need more beef in there, maybe this will be the ticket. He wants to keep the price down so maybe we will do a cedar inlay, i think Jim did this on one of his composites. I kind of want to try the foam but cost may be a factor there

Ben,
I bought a 4 ft x 8 ft sheet of 1/8" thick H80 Divinycell, IIRC it cost about $80 with shipping. You would not need the entire sheet, but if you cut out a footbal shape, or wide ribs, you would have enough left over for several more builds.
If you look at it from an engineering point of view, you'll see that doubling the thickness will provide an 8X decrease in deflection. And with that foam at 5 lb/ft^3, there's no better bargain WRT cost, strength, weight.
 
That is great information to hear. I have been nicely urging my buddy that we may need more beef in there, maybe this will be the ticket. He wants to keep the price down so maybe we will do a cedar inlay, i think Jim did this on one of his composites. I kind of want to try the foam but cost may be a factor there

Hi Ben
I'll be doing my third Cedar insert this early Fall. The reason it has worked for me, is I have the canoe forms to build the 1/8" cedar insert on.
In your case, I think the foam that Stripperguy refers to, would be the way to go.

Please post some pics of your boat shrink wrap ! This may open a new can of worms ! How did you seal the ends of the shrink wrap ? How thick is the wrap material ?

Thanks !

Jim
 
If you are anywhere near Minneapolis, you can save some dough on shipping with pvc foam core (like divinycell) by picking it up at express composites. I did XPS pink foam ribs on my most recent cf build, but im starting to see the space between the ribs oil canning when it is not loaded and the boat is heated up from the sun. I think it has to do with the flat bottom hull shape - my Kevlar shallow-V shaped hull does not have this problem. I will likely be picking up a sheet of this stuff:

https://www.expresscomposites.com/a...-foam-scrimmed-and-microscored-5-4-lb-density
 
If you are anywhere near Minneapolis, you can save some dough on shipping with pvc foam core (like divinycell) by picking it up at express composites. I did XPS pink foam ribs on my most recent cf build, but im starting to see the space between the ribs oil canning when it is not loaded and the boat is heated up from the sun. I think it has to do with the flat bottom hull shape - my Kevlar shallow-V shaped hull does not have this problem. I will likely be picking up a sheet of this stuff:

https://www.expresscomposites.com/a...-foam-scrimmed-and-microscored-5-4-lb-density

Based on your link, I visited Express Composites...and I found they had 3/8" thick H80 in some precut sizes for $1 apiece! That's right, $1 for a 3/8" x 40" x 48" piece of H80 Divinycell!!
I excitedly bought 75 pieces of the 40 x 48 stuff. Sadly, I received an email from them that they only had 13 pieces available of each precut size (other size was 6.25" wide).
Send it all, I said, I said!!
So, next week, I'll have a bunch of H80 coming by UPS to make a few new composite hulls. Even though it's much thicker than I would want, it still will be interesting to try out. Maybe even end up with a hull so stiff that it doesn't need gunnels! How about that?!

Sorry for the thread hijack, but thanks for the link.
 
Wow, what a score! Happy to help. With 3/8 in. being too thick in your opinion, would 1/8 be thick enough for a core like Bens buddys canoe, or my little enhancement?
 
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