Gil Gil Patrick's Puddleduck I think it was called. after I learned a little bit about boats and canoes I basically tossed his book aside when I discovered canoe craft, Rolin Thurlow, Gardner, Chapelle, Parker, and more than a few others 
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Canoe construction material question.
- Thread starter Roybrew
- Start date
Thanks ! I didn't recognize the design.
Gil has some good points, It's funny how we glean ideas from others to make our OWN canoe !
the WC canoe, looks very round bottomed. you learned to lower your seats by this point in time.
Do you use this primarily as a tandem or a solo ?
Jim
Gil has some good points, It's funny how we glean ideas from others to make our OWN canoe !
the WC canoe, looks very round bottomed. you learned to lower your seats by this point in time.
Do you use this primarily as a tandem or a solo ?
Jim
I'm glad I asked early on, I'm sure learning alot from you all. I'm still looking around to see what I can economical afford with out sacrificing weight, plus getting other projects out of the way and making room in my basement,. The prefered wood species are hard to come by in this area with out ordering.
According to Gil Gilpatrick's 18.5 build, it took 71 BF to build his White Guide model. I better think smaller for first build, so maybe the Wabnaki. I'm sort of sticking with Gilpatrick's build for my first one. So if I start with 80 BF, that's just under 2 cubic feet of wood. The wood data base site gives weights in cubic feet. And all these weights are given with a 12% moisture content. Which is a good air dried weight, plus good for steam bending if needed. The hardness, rupture point, and other aspects are given also.
White cedar 22 lb/cu ft
Western cedar 23 lb/cu ft
Cypress 32 lb/cu ft
Sassafras 31 lb/cu ft
Tulip popular 29 lb/cu ft
White ash 42 lb/cu ft
Black ash 34 lb/ cu ft
I've got to pick up some more walnut in a week or so, fell short on a book case project, so I'm going to get some sassafras from that sawmill and see how it looks and finishes. If I can get a deal on some white or western cedar I'd rather go that route. But if I have to go a little heavy on first build, so be it. It'll be fun to build one.
One more question, how much weight would the glass and resin add? I'm guessing the usual 6oz cloth inside and out with foot ball patch on bottom.
I'm going to guess this thing going to weigh in around 80lb+. That's ok, I need the exercise and I need to lose weight.
Roy
According to Gil Gilpatrick's 18.5 build, it took 71 BF to build his White Guide model. I better think smaller for first build, so maybe the Wabnaki. I'm sort of sticking with Gilpatrick's build for my first one. So if I start with 80 BF, that's just under 2 cubic feet of wood. The wood data base site gives weights in cubic feet. And all these weights are given with a 12% moisture content. Which is a good air dried weight, plus good for steam bending if needed. The hardness, rupture point, and other aspects are given also.
White cedar 22 lb/cu ft
Western cedar 23 lb/cu ft
Cypress 32 lb/cu ft
Sassafras 31 lb/cu ft
Tulip popular 29 lb/cu ft
White ash 42 lb/cu ft
Black ash 34 lb/ cu ft
I've got to pick up some more walnut in a week or so, fell short on a book case project, so I'm going to get some sassafras from that sawmill and see how it looks and finishes. If I can get a deal on some white or western cedar I'd rather go that route. But if I have to go a little heavy on first build, so be it. It'll be fun to build one.
One more question, how much weight would the glass and resin add? I'm guessing the usual 6oz cloth inside and out with foot ball patch on bottom.
I'm going to guess this thing going to weigh in around 80lb+. That's ok, I need the exercise and I need to lose weight.
Roy
18.5 is a BIG canoe! I would only ask are you sure that's what you need and want?
Ash is wonderful for steam bending.
Ash is wonderful for steam bending.
It's a shallow Arch bottom,. Realize it's only a 30 inch beam, these photos show it a little bit better it was never built to have a flat bottom and it was built as a solo. I added the second seat during the recent refurb just to make it more desirable should somebody want to buy it.
It could be a river runner (closer rib spacing almost nobody notices). but it was built for the Adirondacks Pond hopping.
Oh I'm sorry, lack of information on my part. I am going to do the 16 foot Wabnaki that's in his book... well I'm planning on it.
Cool! Here's a nice one. http://www.wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/first-canoe-completed-16-wabnaki.13782/
I'm intrigued. Sassafras is not something that is readily available here in WI. Do keep in mind , if you go that route, that you are getting about 50% more weight (in the strips) for very closely similar strength and elasticity. If you go for it, I for one, would love to see the result.
RE: Weight estimates
I'd guess that a typical, reasonably careful first-time builder can turn out a 16-ft cedar hull w/6oz cloth in the ~55+ish pound range. It breaks down about like so:
- About a third of your 2 ft[SUP]3[/SUP] of (strip) wood ends up as saw kerf, sanding dust, or scrap. That leaves around 16 pounds in the hull. (remember, the BF estimate that you read is raw planks, before cutting to strips)
- One layer of 6-oz inside and out (including fill coats) is about the same, so another 16. Current total 32 for bare hull
- Football , being generous, is at most half the surface area of one full layer, so figure 4 pounds (Actually probably less, as you don't need an extra fill coat, etc.) Total 36
- First-timers (and those of us who do not build often) tend to need to fill "oops" spots in the hull, and have messier finishes inside the stems. (Careful technique can minimize this. Check many of the build threads for hints) Add 2 lbs. Total 38
- The rest is gunwales, seats, decks, carry thwarts, &tc. Ash is traditional, and works well. First timers tend to overbuild here a bit too. 15 pounds is not terribly far off. Totat 53 pounds
All of the above numbers come with a hefty fudge factor, and you could trim some weight in several ways. If you stick with Cedar for the strips, the Seats and seat mounting are the lowest hanging fruit for slimming down, with the gunwales very close behind.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!
RE: Weight estimates
I'd guess that a typical, reasonably careful first-time builder can turn out a 16-ft cedar hull w/6oz cloth in the ~55+ish pound range. It breaks down about like so:
- About a third of your 2 ft[SUP]3[/SUP] of (strip) wood ends up as saw kerf, sanding dust, or scrap. That leaves around 16 pounds in the hull. (remember, the BF estimate that you read is raw planks, before cutting to strips)
- One layer of 6-oz inside and out (including fill coats) is about the same, so another 16. Current total 32 for bare hull
- Football , being generous, is at most half the surface area of one full layer, so figure 4 pounds (Actually probably less, as you don't need an extra fill coat, etc.) Total 36
- First-timers (and those of us who do not build often) tend to need to fill "oops" spots in the hull, and have messier finishes inside the stems. (Careful technique can minimize this. Check many of the build threads for hints) Add 2 lbs. Total 38
- The rest is gunwales, seats, decks, carry thwarts, &tc. Ash is traditional, and works well. First timers tend to overbuild here a bit too. 15 pounds is not terribly far off. Totat 53 pounds
All of the above numbers come with a hefty fudge factor, and you could trim some weight in several ways. If you stick with Cedar for the strips, the Seats and seat mounting are the lowest hanging fruit for slimming down, with the gunwales very close behind.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!
Thanks DeniseO30, I added that site to my home screen.
sailsman63 great way to figure that. I knew the glassing and resin would add weight but I didn't know what to expect. Yes here in east Tn popular, oaks, and sassafras are plentiful. We are to far north for cypress, not by much, and way south of of white cedar. All the ash trees are dieing from the infestation of that bug. Thanks for all the help. When I start I'll post as I go along. I'll get to before Christmas I hope.
This coming week I have a camping trip with my nephew. I wanted to do a river trip, but we are just on the west side of the North Carolina mountains that this hurricane is pounding on. May have to settle for a lake trip.
sailsman63 great way to figure that. I knew the glassing and resin would add weight but I didn't know what to expect. Yes here in east Tn popular, oaks, and sassafras are plentiful. We are to far north for cypress, not by much, and way south of of white cedar. All the ash trees are dieing from the infestation of that bug. Thanks for all the help. When I start I'll post as I go along. I'll get to before Christmas I hope.
This coming week I have a camping trip with my nephew. I wanted to do a river trip, but we are just on the west side of the North Carolina mountains that this hurricane is pounding on. May have to settle for a lake trip.
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Please keep us updated on your progress!
Please keep us updated on your progress!
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OMG Denise....a canoe shop in the basement. I thought we were the only ones. Great use of space. We have since moved to the garage but I remember those days of smelling up the entire house.
Roybrew...use the red cedar if you can get enough. Just learn to scarf shorter pieces together to make them long enough. With a little practice you can match up the colour/grain pretty well. I have a couple of w/c to finish this winter and am hoping to make a new stripper for soloing. I love Karins little Jacks Special she built.
Roybrew...use the red cedar if you can get enough. Just learn to scarf shorter pieces together to make them long enough. With a little practice you can match up the colour/grain pretty well. I have a couple of w/c to finish this winter and am hoping to make a new stripper for soloing. I love Karins little Jacks Special she built.
It worked out pretty good when my son was here over 10 yrs ago. Too many years have gone by so I don't actually build canoes anymore, I do have a 16-foot near 100 year-old Delaware Ducker that I may have to finish restoring outdoors but we're going to try and get it down the basement. I have a very old house and it's pretty drafty so any smells usually dissipate pretty quick.
Not perfect, but a good shortcut to calculating weights without having to do a whole lot of math.
Canoe Weight Calculator
It's a small world, the first one to comment on that post was Mr. Dodd
Western red cedar boards can vary quite a bit in weight, if you pick a board from a fast-growing tree with widely-spaced growth rings and compare it to a board with tight-spaced growth rings, most likely one will be significantly lighter than the other. Model airplane builders have known about this sort of thing for a long time, with balsa wood being sold in various hardnesses... soft, medium and hard, going from lightest to heaviest.
I've found some very light WRC boards at Home Depots and other lumber yards, but they're not common and if I do find an exceptionally good one, I'll buy and use it as an excuse to make another paddle. The wood's so soft and light, it makes a pretty fragile paddle unless it's sheathed in fiberglass.
My guess is that wood choice will be the most critical variable in determining how heavy the stripper will eventually be... at least from my weights taken during construction. Surprisngly, glassing did not add that much weight on it own... I have the component weights somewhere, final weight on a 15'9" Huron turned out to be 53 pounds, not the lightest but I wanted some durability as well.
I've found some very light WRC boards at Home Depots and other lumber yards, but they're not common and if I do find an exceptionally good one, I'll buy and use it as an excuse to make another paddle. The wood's so soft and light, it makes a pretty fragile paddle unless it's sheathed in fiberglass.
My guess is that wood choice will be the most critical variable in determining how heavy the stripper will eventually be... at least from my weights taken during construction. Surprisngly, glassing did not add that much weight on it own... I have the component weights somewhere, final weight on a 15'9" Huron turned out to be 53 pounds, not the lightest but I wanted some durability as well.
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Old thread but just noticed this. The one in the link is mine!
Nice job alsg. That is a true work of art when people display something you built. I noticed you screwed the gunnels.
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