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Boat Design Stage to become a build
- Thread starter TexasRiverRacer23
- Start date
Flared bow vs. wave-piercing bow for wave paddling—this debate has stalked whitewater canoes, seakayaks, and other water bump racing paddlecrafts for a long time.
Here are videos advocating for Epic Kayak's wave piercing design. Epic was founded by Greg Barton, the Olympic gold medalist kayaker and summa cum laude graduate of the University of Michigan engineering school, and once co-owned by Oscar Chalupsky, the 12-time world sufski champion. The other, "conventional" kayak in the videos may have more rocker than the Epic, which dominated ocean racing for years, but the bigger difference is the substantial overhang and flare in the bow and stern of the conventional design.
It appears to my eye anyway, that both hulls are flared ? The rocker on the " Conventional" kayak, is far more pronounced.
Yes, the Epic handled the waves nicely.
From my my experience, a flared hull will "Bob" more than the straight sided hull.
Those videos were obviously made to promote the Epic kayak.
Just my thoughts though.
Jim
With an open boat I think it really depends on your circumstances. When I paddled racing canoes they sliced right through waves. It was an odd feeling until you got used to it. I was so used to going up and over it was odd to slice right through with very little bow rise. It did feel faster but once the waves reached a certain point and started spilling into the boat any benefit was lost.
I like the idea of bow flare above the water line so that it only comes into play in deeper waves. Not only will it provide more lift but the flare will direct spray away from the boat.
I once built a canoe where the outwales stopped about 1' from the bow and I was surprised how much wave splash came over the bow of the canoe. I made another version of that boat and this time time I extended the gunwales all the way to the bow as they would normally be and I was surprised how well it deflected the water. It was obvious water was still splashing high enough to enter the canoe but instead of slipping over the bow unimpeded much of it was deflected outwards by the outwale.
Alan
I like the idea of bow flare above the water line so that it only comes into play in deeper waves. Not only will it provide more lift but the flare will direct spray away from the boat.
I once built a canoe where the outwales stopped about 1' from the bow and I was surprised how much wave splash came over the bow of the canoe. I made another version of that boat and this time time I extended the gunwales all the way to the bow as they would normally be and I was surprised how well it deflected the water. It was obvious water was still splashing high enough to enter the canoe but instead of slipping over the bow unimpeded much of it was deflected outwards by the outwale.
Alan
Wenonah made their C1Ws (a whitewater C1 downriver racer) with quite a bit of flare above the waterline (as well as their first generation Odyssey) and reversed the gunnels so that the deeper (wider) side was the outwale, which deflected a lot of water away from the boat. I've raced the Wenonah SCR, which is a pretty radical Stock Class C2, in open (coastal) water races where it did a lot of diving, but we had a cover, and the bowman stayed wet, though the boat stayed pretty dry. Plowing through big waves only works if you have a self-bailer or decking.
@TexasRiverRacer23 Just guessing you probably have what 8"-9" from the bottom to the flare? So under normal conditions it will cut through the waves / chop and then if it gets really rough it will keep the bow from diving down.
John Berry, the founder of Millbrook Boats, used to glue triangular pieces of closed cell foam about 2' long under the outwales of the bow on his whitewater canoes. The purpose was to serve as lightweight splash-deflecting rails. These eventually would fall off and most Millbrook paddlers would leave them off. Essentially, they weren't very popular. Skilled whitewater paddlers can keep water out of open canoes with angling and heeling techniques, except for those unavoidable hydrological horribles that will fill up anyone and anything.
A more interesting debate in the whitewater canoe world was whether, if you wanted a solo boat to rise over waves, should it be designed with almost no volume in a pinched and skinny bow (so it would flick up like a weightless feather) or with a lot of volume in a blunt bow (so it would bob up like a fat cork). Near the end of his career, Berry seemed to favor the first approach with his pinched bow MJM and Fog designs. Nolan Whitesell, on the other hand, went to blunt, fat bows on his Piranha because he liked bob-up buoyancy for paddling over waterfalls and other steep drops.
Well, this discussion of bow design has drifted away from TWS racing canoes. Would the rules of that race allow the temporary attachment of foam splash rails just for the paddle across San Antonio Bay?
Here are some of the stations up in the bow area. Even though I flared it, it's not what I would consider significant as the widths still aren't very wide. My thought/hope is that it will still pierce waves but be enough to keep the bow from diving.
I'll try and answer a few questions that have been asked. As far as spray skirts for the Texas Water Safari, they are legal. If you go back in my post, I have a picture of my Lonestar canoe showing the main spray skirt for the bay crossing and I have another of me paddling the boat and I have two smaller covers on the boat to help with water coming in the boat. I will have a battery-operated bilge pump in the boat that can be operated with a switch using my foot. Even though the boat will be skirted, it will still take on water and it needs to be removed to not become too heavy and less maneuverable.
As far as gluing on some sort of foam to the exterior of the boat, I'm not sure how this would fit within the rules. They wouldn't survive the upper river anyway as they would probably get ripped off in the first 30 miles and nobody would want to stop with only 6 miles to go to try and glue something on for a bay crossing. I do know of people that have added small home built out riggers that they install at the mouth of the bay. This puts the boat in the unlimited category.
I'll try and answer a few questions that have been asked. As far as spray skirts for the Texas Water Safari, they are legal. If you go back in my post, I have a picture of my Lonestar canoe showing the main spray skirt for the bay crossing and I have another of me paddling the boat and I have two smaller covers on the boat to help with water coming in the boat. I will have a battery-operated bilge pump in the boat that can be operated with a switch using my foot. Even though the boat will be skirted, it will still take on water and it needs to be removed to not become too heavy and less maneuverable.
As far as gluing on some sort of foam to the exterior of the boat, I'm not sure how this would fit within the rules. They wouldn't survive the upper river anyway as they would probably get ripped off in the first 30 miles and nobody would want to stop with only 6 miles to go to try and glue something on for a bay crossing. I do know of people that have added small home built out riggers that they install at the mouth of the bay. This puts the boat in the unlimited category.
I guess I don't really understand the reasoning behind the low volume bow being easier to "flick up like a weightless feather."
I'm certainly no expert but I've always thought flotation was all about water displacement. The more water something displaces the more it will want to float (given the same weight). I'd think a knife thin bow, due to the low volume, should be much more difficult to rise than a blunt, high volume, bow.
I wouldn't think there would be enough weight savings because of less material to make much of a difference either.
Alan
Well, I'm trying to recall discussions from 40 years ago, which were in the context of highly rockered whitewater canoes—primarily canoes (by Berry) that were designed for slalom and downriver racing.
Without disagreeing with your Archimedes buoyancy physics, I will say that rise over waves isn't the only design consideration. Acceleratability and speed are also important. Blunt bow Royalex whitewater canoes like the Whitesell Piranha were pigs to accelerate and slow, no matter their bow buoyancy virtues for running steep creeks and waterfalls. Skinny bow composite boats like Berry's were acceleratable and fast, and were sufficiently buoyant over class 3 waves.
In fact, I always thought that on highly rockered canoes the first 18" or so were fairly irrelevant for bow buoyancy because the rocker kept that out of the water. The more important design element for sufficient bow rise seemed to be how much volume was in the bow after the first 18", both in terms of hull width and above-waterline flare. Even old Prospector designs, which are not racing canoes, are marked by narrow noses that quickly widen. And serious whitewater racers and cruisers were often anal about end weight, sometimes removing even small decks and paddling without float bags to reduce swing weight in the bow and stern.
It's been 20 years since I paddled serious whitewater, so I don't think my opinions about whitewater bow rise are as informed as they once were. And I'm not sure that the same bow design considerations would apply to a non-rockered or slightly rockered flatwater marathon racing canoe, which only occasionally encounters waves, as would apply to a highly rockered whitewater canoe.
I'll give the latest on this project and then I probably won't post anymore on this thread unless I find time to build it. It looks like my out of state move will be happening in the spring and I'll be focusing on starting a new business which means I won't have time to build a boat. With that said, it looks like this boat will come to fruition but not by me. I've been corresponding with one of the members here and I sent him plans for rev 7 and rev 8 of this design. He has printed them both out and making stations for both versions to see which one he likes best. I've requested he do a build thread during his build and hopefully he will oblige. If that happens, I'll put a link to it here. I'm excited to see this get made and to hear feedback on how it paddles.
Well, even if you don't build a TWS canoe, Jeff, maybe you will get interested in paddling other hulls where you end up moving to. Where will that be? In any event, stick around the site and contribute any thoughts you have on any topic, any time. You're very creative.
I do plan on building another TWS canoe as one of my bucket list items is to complete the Safari in a boat I build.
I’m currently paddling a Wenonah C1 racing canoe and I have a fully rigged aluminum canoe that is at my brother’s house in Fayetteville, Arkansas waiting to reunite with me up there. Planning to move to Northwest Arkansas in the spring.
Recently I sent two different versions of this boat to another forum member. He overlaid the plans to note the differences and then started roughing out station forms. Once mounted on the strongback, he was able to really study the lines and make adjustments to his liking. I told him to take all the creative license he wants. We did a video call last week and it was great to see him progressing with the build. I am going to post some pictures here that I've received, and he plans on starting his own build thread. Once that is active, I'll link it here and then you can follow along on that thread. Enjoy these images for now.
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I'm doing some prep work before I jump right in so that I don't get stalled out allong the way. My current thought is to build it as a stripper but using a core of foam rather than cedar. At 1/4" thickness the difference in materials should save me quite a bit of weight as the foam is 20% to255 the weight of cedar.
Once I have everything lined up and ready to go I'll start a thread on the build.
Once I have everything lined up and ready to go I'll start a thread on the build.
Matt, I'd like to extend a belated welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please consider adding your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is in many ways a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.
I like the narrow shear, forward of the paddler. It would seem a lot easier to switch sides, and plant the blade of the paddle close to the hull .
Just my observation, but would it benefit if the seat was a little further aft ?
The Wave wake looks good .
I'd like to try that hull out !
Thanks for updating this thread ! Love design .
Just my observation, but would it benefit if the seat was a little further aft ?
The Wave wake looks good .
I'd like to try that hull out !
Thanks for updating this thread ! Love design .
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