Skegs on canoes?

[carpenter]

I think the question has merit - traditional designs were confined by technology and materials. Certainly folk covered many kilometers in their boats and likely refined designs when able, but I imagine they just paddled and did not worry about how to make the next trip faster by changing the boat - paddle faster or for a longer time...wind and waves? adjust for that too. The boat floats and travels forward/backward/sideways when paddled - adding another element to the simple shape of a canoe would not likely have been envisioned as practical if considered at all. The Pacific Island dugouts perform much better in the ocean with their outriggers though.

Modifications and refinements - NorthWest dugouts would have been great examples of this, the ability to clearly establish the hull configuration during construction and change the shape methodically in use would most certainly have led to design informed by performance. Not to mention the demands of traveling on the ocean and the additional time available for craft to those cultures compared to the more nomadic Eastern nations. Canoes made with stitched birch bark, bent wooden ribs - I cannot imagine that there would/could be a lot of precise refinements made. Sharpish entry/exit, rounded hull, thwarts and ribs for structure - floats, paddle till it fails, fix it or replace it. Tradition, materials, time, skills and need and the occasional "gee whiz" factor of a modification or watching someone else's canoe do something special would be influential but I would be curious to know how consistent shape/form was from canoe to canoe, maker to maker.

Attaching a skeg or a rudder would likely have been too complex to contemplate from a material/technology standpoint and I think they just paddled - if the wind or waves created issues they dealt, as most folk have commented above. BUT, why not consider the possibilities? Outriggers on Pacific Island canoes, marathon racing canoes, coracles - they certainly differ greatly from Eastern NA canoes. Could a rockered hull like that of the Echo be tamed by an add-on?

My mind went to the gunnel mounted "centre" boards used on canoes rigged for sailing. That would act as a skeg without taking up space in the hull (until you decided it was not useful anymore...) but a non intrusive method of testing the theory. Rudders too can act merely as skegs - lock it in position, skeg.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Could a rockered hull like that of the Echo be tamed by an add-on?

1.5" of rocker is already tame.

 

[Idiot Savant]

I'm not an historian, but I agree with Benson on this when it comes to all around general purpose canoes. Specialty boats with swede form or asymmetrical rocker might be better at some things but I wouldn't say they are a better design. If they were better designs I don't think there would still be so many traditional boats out there.

I think most people that buy Prospectors and such would be much happier with a more modern design.
I'm not saying you should take your Wenonah Minnesota II down Cataract Canyon, but most of the time swede form and asymmetrical are an improvement. Just because people buy older designs isn't proof they should.

 

[Idiot Savant]

The Echo would be good for class II+, except for one thing. It has very low freeboard. I probably won't ever use it for more than class I+. On western rivers, like the Green and Colorado, rangers get very irritated if they have to pick up gear that wasn't tied into the boat.
I, and most of the people in my club, make sure everything stays in the boat, in the event of a capsize. Hence what looks like whitewater outfitting. I do put in float bags if I don't have dry bags filling up the canoe and expect some haystacks.
On the plus side, low freeboard makes the Echo especially suitable for conversion to a pack canoe.

On most club day outings, I use my inflatable kayak, which does have a skeg, simply because it is so easy to transport. Inflatables aren't known for their speed, but I have no trouble keeping up with tandem canoes. I attribute that to the double bladed paddle. It wasn't a very difficult decision to decide pack canoes were the way to go. I've paddled the IK with and without the skeg and the difference is huge. It is way, way better, with the skeg. Not being retractable, it is a pain in the behind in shallow water, but a retractable skeg would solve that.
I haven't decided to put the skeg on the Echo. But it would be an interesting experiment. My big concern with it is launching and landing. I have no doubt it would be an improvement while paddling in deeper water.

 

[memaquay]

I wasn't sure where this was going until I saw the picture. Your primary form of propulsion is obviously going to be a double blade. Perhaps the echo is not the best canoe for purpose, set up as a pack boat with the seat on the bottom. I was going to suggest simply heeling the canoe, but that would be in the realm of single blading. My Raven, a much larger canoe than the echo, and with much more rocker than the echo, tames right down on the flats when I heel it a bit.

I'm no double blader, but I did own a white water kayak when I was around 19. The slightest wind would make that thing go squirrely, so I can see where hull design would be extremely important for a double blader. I don't find hull design influences my paddling much with traditional canoeing, I can solo a tandem 16 foot prospector through most conditions, or I can use one of my modern asymmetrical solo canoes, but basic paddling and hull displacement techniques yield the same results in both. The only variable of any consequence would be speed, which is relatively unimportant to me at this point in my life.

As for mounting a rudder, if you were inclined to build a canoe, I would say make it with a small flat transom above the water line in the stern, where you could easily mount a drop down rudder.

For me now, if I want to make speed, I use a motor, lol.

 

[M Clemens]

On the plus side, low freeboard makes the Echo especially suitable for conversion to a pack canoe.

And why I thought it interesting. I've always wondered why, other than the Dagger Tupelo, no one ever offered a true sit-on-the-floor Royalex Pack canoe. Is that a Northstar seat on your Echo?

 

[Idiot Savant]

When someone first proposed putting a skeg or rudder on a kayak I wonder if people were going "the Eskimos don't have rudders on their kayaks". Probably.
When I was listing the boats I have, I forgot one. I have one of these:

Remix XP Kayak

It is often said that there is gap in kayak design, that no 'one' kayak excels in whitewater yet carries speed across flat calm lakes and slow moving rivers' that is until now. The Remix XP was designed to bridge the gap between the two once and for all. The Remix XP is an extension of our...

liquidlogickayaks.com

With the skeg up, it spins on a dime. Great for class III, but not so great on stretches of flatwater.
Dropping the skeg tames it considerably. It's surprisingly fast.
Now imagine being able to do the same thing with your whitewater canoe.
Or you're in the Boundary Waters and the wind is blowing. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to adjust how the boat handles?
Have following seas? Skeg down and you are far less likely to broach.

 

[lowangle al]

I think most people that buy Prospectors and such would be much happier with a more modern design.
I'm not saying you should take your Wenonah Minnesota II down Cataract Canyon, but most of the time swede form and asymmetrical are an improvement. Just because people buy older designs isn't proof they should.

Maybe, maybe not. Any time you change a design feature on a boat it changes a handling characteristic. So I guess it depends on what handling characteristics you want. I'm sure there are people who aren't happy with their prospectors but there are also those that wouldn't be happy in a design that was significantly different.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I think most people that buy Prospectors and such would be much happier with a more modern design.
I'm not saying you should take your Wenonah Minnesota II down Cataract Canyon, but most of the time swede form and asymmetrical are an improvement. Just because people buy older designs isn't proof they should.

While something like the Wenonah Rogue will do everything a Prospector will while being less tormented by wind, I was never unhappy about anything on my Prospector except the weight - which was a materials problem, not a design problem.

And I'd never put a skeg on a Prospector either.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

The Echo would be good for class II+, except for one thing. It has very low freeboard.

The Echo has the same freeboard as the Wildfire, which I consider easily suitable for class 2+ rivers.

The problem is your seating position. Sitting on the floor isn't conducive to good boat control. Gey your butt up above the floor and your knees under you in the chines and you have a lot more control of the hull. And then, you can ride over waves instead of through them.

If you don't already have a copy, pick up Paul Mason's book Thrill of the Paddle. Even if you don't do big whitewater, the skills described there will make you a better river paddler.

 

[memaquay]

I remember when I was taking my whitewater training, I was really into asymmetrical hulls. The guys who were instructing me were very skilled paddlers. They absolutely hated canoes with asymmetrical hulls and rocker, every one of them paddled some form of traditional hull. So these fellas would absolutely not be happier paddling a modern hull, and they were some of the best paddlers I had ever met.

 

[M Clemens]

The Echo has the same freeboard as the Wildfire, which I consider easily suitable for class 2+ rivers.

Echo 11.5" depth at center, Wildfire 12.5"

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Echo 11.5" depth at center, Wildfire 12.5"

Apparently, I measure mine different. But what's an inch between friends?

 

[MyKneesHurt]

Perhaps this post itself could use a skeg to steer it back to the OP, but there is an enormous amount of specialization in native watercraft, a case in point being bark canoes, and they were tweaked or changed until they worked. There were known methods for increasing or decreasing rocker, tumblehome, freeboard, flare, stem shapes for different environments - all sorts of details were consciously governed.
I myself certainly could not design better boats by eye and hand, and I've tried, within my own limited scope. I think being in some small way connected to the history of paddling is part of what makes me happy on the water, and a more space-age boat might reduce that happiness. But, to the OP, if you're paddling a canoe in a kayak-y sort of way, why not throw a skeg on it?
Having said that, it is one thing to appreciate just how far different cultures managed to advance boat design, and another to assume they wouldn't adapt to whatever new materials or methods they might have come across. I've seen skegs on Greenland kayaks, but I confess I don't know their historical provenance.
I doubt I could CAD-design a better boat than someone who grew up with canoes being integral to their lifestyle. That seems a more interesting question - assuming equal proficiency with CAD, could I design a better boat than a bark canoe builder from the 18th century?

 

[Idiot Savant]

It is looking like the base for my skeg is too wide and too stiff to work the way I want.
I'd have to mount it way too far forward.
I'll try and take photos to illustrate, in the next day or two.
But it's looking like I'll have to rethink this or abandon the project.
I can't risk messing up the Echo, before the trip, so I'll probably just set this aside till I get back.
I might have to mount something off the back, though that is not what I had in mind.

The idea, that canoe design reached its zenith, in the early part of the 20th century, and can't be improved upon, is something I strongly disagree with. It isn't a matter of whether the Echo or Prospector or any other boat performs well as is, it's a matter of whether it can be made to perform better, and I think the answer is yes. A retractable skeg would allow a white water canoe to track on flatwater and a flatwater canoe to adjust for conditions. Touring kayaks work just fine without a skeg. I paddle that way all the time. But a skeg makes it even better.
My thought.

 

[memaquay]

The idea, that canoe design reached its zenith, in the early part of the 20th century, and can't be improved upon, is something I strongly disagree with.

Many of us here own multiple canoes, for a variety of reasons. I'd like to think it is because each canoe does something better than the other, and is used for a distinctive purpose. Canoe designers have been working for decades to design better canoes, this is not a new concept. Fellas like John Winters have written pretty extensively on it. At the general consumer level, people will often defend the one canoe that they have bought as the best canoe ever because they have limited exposure to a variety of hulls. I don't think that is the case on a website where most participants have a level of experience with many different hull styles, and a working knowledge of the advantages and disadvantages of them.

So your idea of making a canoe perform better is relative. Perform better at what? The skeg or rudder will make it easier for a canoe to track straight, and perhaps give one gains in speed on the flats. It will also add weight and lots of parts that can break down if one is on an extended canoe trip with a lot of portages. An asymmetrical canoe will often track better than a symmetrical canoe, but it will experience difficulties carving eddies or back ferrying. Similarly, a double blade might make your canoe go faster than a single, but might not be so effective on a rapid strewn river.

In the end it's about intended use and the compromises one is willing to accept for that use. My experience has been wilderness tripping. If I'm going tandem on a trip with limited white water, I might use my J. Winter's Winisk. If I'm doing a trip with a lot of white water, I'll take the Nova Craft 17 foot prospector. I'll sometimes solo a wood canvas prospector style canoe if there aren't many ports, I'll sometimes take one of my dedicated solos.

Your skeg idea might have its place for a particular use, but I don't see it being incorporated on highly rockered white water canoes. Indeed, I don't even see it being effective with that type of design. It seems to me it would work best on a flat straight hull that is already designed to go straight and fast. My guess is that if a reliable and efficient ruddering system for a canoe could be developed and become popular, it would already be on the market. The vast majority of kayak and canoe owners have limited skills and want to be able to make their craft go straight without much effort, hence the massive popularity of consumer kayaks. If a reliable rudder system could be installed on consumer level canoes and sold to the masses, would the canoes suddenly regain its consumer popularity? There are not many rudder systems on consumer level kayaks either, so I doubt it.

My last thought is not based on improving canoe design, but is more about the emotional venue of traditions. For many of us, canoeing encompasses more than trying to achieve efficiencies, and is based on a shared knowledge of how things were done in the past, and continuing those practices in a world where change doesn't always bring about improvement. For a great many canoe trippers, the idea behind going on a trip is reconnecting with nature and a certain way of life. The methods for getting there are less important than the experience, so individuals will use the equipment that enhances their experience. For most of these folks, a canoe rudder would not be a piece of equipment that would contribute to that experience. However, each to their own, and its been a long winter up here with two feet of ice still on the lakes, so I have too much time to be long winded, my apologies.

 

[ppine]

No need for a skeg or rudder on a canoe. Maybe it could be useful if you only paddle lakes for the rest of your life.
I built a sea kayak from a Pygmy kit and never needed a rudder on it.
The key is to learn your strokes.
A sailing canoe is a horse of a different color, and requires leeboards and a rudder in order to be able to beat against the wind.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I have to challenge the idea that a skeg will automatically add efficiency to a canoe. I call on my sailing dinghy experience for this. When heading dead downwind in a light breeze, we retract the swing keel to reduce drag. If I wait until I'm already otherwise maxed before I raise the keel (which on my boat is much like a retractable skeg), the increase in speed when I raise it is palpable and measurable.

I have serious doubts that a skeg that has any effectiveness on tracking would not also add a similar element of drag. And thats without taking river debris, vegetation, and other non liquid things into consideration.

As for a skeg or rudder somehow improving a whitewater canoe .... that's a nope. Don't want any challenges to hull integrity or geegaws hanging off the end, thank you.

Instead of making a wonderfully maneuverable boat track better, the more efficient solution is to make the paddler track better....IMHO.

 

[ppine]

The first thing to do on a wood and canvas canoe is remove the keel.

 

[Benson Gray]

This thread made me curious about the history of asymmetric hull designs in small boats. I didn't find an authoritative source but the list of Struer's discontinued models at the link below offers some perspective. They introduced two new K1 models in 1960, a symmetric Rapido and an asymmetric Fighter. Erik Hansen won the K-1 1000 meter sprint event in the 1960 Olympics with a Rapido and Rolf Peterson won same event in 1964 with an asymmetric Struer. Their asymmetric C1 model named Pawnee was introduced in 1964. It appears that the current sprint racers are using hulls that are less asymmetric than the ones from the 1960s.

Most canoe and kayak designs involve compromises. Many years ago Dan Miller put together an exhibit at the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton, New York titled "The Perfect Canoe" to show how much the concept of an ideal canoe had changed over the years. Canoes from the late 1800s were expected to be good for paddle racing, sailing, and sleeping in. Recreational canoes from the mid-1900s were expected to be very stable, so they tended to be wide with flat bottoms. Modern International Class Sailing Canoes have evolved to the point that they don't look anything like traditional canoes any more. Many new canoes are more narrow with rounder bottoms and some are asymmetric. The point is that people aren't all the same and their expectations / requirements change over time.

Therefore, if you feel that a skeg (or rudder or leeboard) will make your canoe better for your purposes then go for it. Let us know how it works out. Just don't be surprised if everyone else doesn't feel the exactly the same way.

Benson

Historic Models – Struer Kajak

These beautiful wooden kayaks are all discontinued, but many of them are still in service today around the world.

www.struerkajak.com