Skegs on canoes?

[Idiot Savant]

I'm thinking of doing something a little crazy. I'm thinking of mounting a removeable skeg on my Esquif Echo solo canoe.
In the world of kayaks, retractable skegs are pretty common and, in my opinion, the greatest thing since sliced bread.
So why don't they have them on canoes? They would have the same advantages on a canoe that they have on a kayak.
If you know of any company that has a canoe with a retractable skeg, please let me know.

I couldn't find a suitable retractable kit, for may canoe, so I had to settle for a removeable one.
It has a base, that I'll have to glue on, and a fin that slides in. Only cost about $12.
Not ideal. I have a removeable skeg, on my IK, and it's a pain in the butt in shallow water. But I wouldn't paddle without it. It improves handling about 500%.
The downside of a retractable would be it takes up valuable floor space and is one more thing to potentially go wrong.
If I mount the removeable and I hate it, I'll be stuck with having the base on the canoe, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem, until I want to sell it.
Something to play with.

 

[M Clemens]

Well, if you are determined to give this a try, the Wenonah Fusion is available with a rudder, because it tracked so poorly without. You could mount a rudder in much the same way (readily available aftermarket) and disable the steering function, thus making it a drop down skeg. All mounting would be above the waterline. Necky also made a drop skeg for the Gannet, Alsek and other yaks, if you could find a derelict hull to pilfer one and modify. It's a simple design really, a handy craftsman could probably fab one up. Personally, I would not glue or penetrate the hull below the waterline on a T-formex or Royalex boat. I have paddled an Echo, can't imagine why you would need a skeg on that boat.

 

[lowangle al]

I don't doubt that a skeg will improve control of your boat, but for what I do I'm not a fan. My view is probably narrow minded and stuck in the past but I believe if the Natives who invented the canoe didn't have one, I don't need one. Somewhere along the way I also developed the belief that canoes shouldn't have any moving parts.

I want to add that after over 50 years of paddling I learned how to use my hull as a rudder just last season. It may not improve control as much as skeg but it improves it considerably. When I'm solo I rarely make a turn without carving into it, using the hull as a rudder. When paddling tandem with my wife I'm working on getting her to lean with me to make it happen.

Anything you can do to make paddling more efficient will probably make it more fun too, so give it a try and see if it improves your experience.

 

[eckilson]

Having a skeg definitely makes it easier to paddle my sea kayak in the wind, but being able to adjust it relative to the wind directions is important.



A drop-down rudder would work fine downwind, but not so well with cross winds. To do it right you would need to cut into the stern and put in a retractible skeg - you have already looked for that and didn't find one. Not something I would want to do anyway.

Personally, I'm OK fighting the wind on the rare occasions that I have to paddle my canoe in it. Now that I have a sea kayak, I'm much more likely to take that for windy open water.

 

[Idiot Savant]

I'm not determined. Not yet anyway. Something I'm considering more as an experiment than a real need.
I'm planning on doing my first loaded trip, with the Echo, in May.
Empty, I find it a little squirrely. It'll probably be less so loaded. Either way, a skeg should improve its straight-line performance.
At the very least, a skeg would make sit n switch more practical.
There is a Sawyer canoe for sale, locally, with a factory installed rudder. I've thought seriously about it. But, at this point in time, I prefer a skeg. I'm used to using the paddle to keep on track and a rudder just confuses me. I don't think any of the rudders would fit my Echo.

I recently bought a couple books on the history of canoes. One of them is really good and I should do a book review on it. The "Indians" of the Pacific Northwest developed the dugout canoe to a very high level. They were ocean going. Great things were done in bark canoes and canvas canoes. But I'm of the belief that we've learned a thing or two since then. Neither the native Americans nor the Chestnut canoe company had CAD, or Kevlar or carbon fiber. I think we can design and build better canoes now, than in the past.
Whether a skeg is the next improvement is yet to be seen.

 

[yknpdlr]

I'm a fan of using a tool in the way it was designed to best operate. Even though I have several ultralight canoes, call me old school for sure in many of the things that I do. I'm with Al's thinking, I have never been of the mind to turn my canoe into something that it is not. I just became determined to learn to be a better paddler of my canoes with how they react in conditions and perform in the manner they were designed to do. If I wanted to paddle a kayak and steer it with my feet, then I would have one, but I do not want nor have any use for one.

 

[Alan Gage]

I personally would not want a skeg in a tripping canoe because it would take up so much storage room. I used to have a kayak with a skeg and it was ok but I later got kayaks with rudders and found them to be much more effective and easier to use. I often used those ruddered kayaks with short single blades and it was a pleasure just taking easy and consistent one sided power strokes with no corrections for as long as I wanted.

I've never paddled an Echo but I have paddled hulls with similar specs and while I realize a lot of people out there have them, love them, and paddle them on flatwater with no problem it's certainly not my preference. I'm sure it will track better when loaded but my personal preference is for a longer and less rockered hull. I have a hulls similar to the Echo and I like paddling it on our local river when I want to play around with maneuvering (slow and easy river with no whitewater) or in small sloughs where it can be tight quarters. But if the goal is to paddle at my regular cruising pace for hours on end then I'm taking a different boat. I've often dreamed of fitting a rudder to one of my tripping canoes but I've yet to come up with a DIY system I'm happy with.

I'll be curious to see how your Echo feels when loaded. Maybe that will make all the difference. It definitely affects the way they handle.

Alan

 

[Benson Gray]

Neither the native Americans nor the Chestnut canoe company had CAD, or Kevlar or carbon fiber. I think we can design and build better canoes now, than in the past.

True, they didn't have CAD or modern materials. They did have a few thousand years to test and optimize the elementary forms. Most modern designs below the water line are simply refinements of basic shapes that were roughed out a long time ago.

Rudders have been added to sailing canoes since at least the 1880s. The picture below shows some of the various styles used on my own canoes. The link below offers some examples of how to rig the lines. Good luck,

Benson

Lines recomended for Old town rig

Does anyone know if there was a standard set, or recomendation for rigging the lines on an Old town sailer?

forums.wcha.org

 

[Steve in Idaho]

On paper, the Echo looks like it should handle similar to the Wildfire. That alone tells me that I wouldn't do anything to change it below the waterline. If you wish for an easier tracking canoe, I would bet a lot of money that you'd be better off selling the Echo (looks to me like a very desirable river cruiser) and use that money to buy something more to your liking. Perhaps a used Prism, Dagger Sojourn or Clipper Solitide.

In a perfect world, you would keep the Echo for when your forward stroke improves and buy the easier tracking canoe (or kayak...sigh) for now.

Just looking back on my journey as perspective.

 

[Idiot Savant]

All points well taken.
First, let me say that the Echo isn't my only boat. Far from it. I have two tandem canoes, two solo canoes, a seakayak (with skeg), two touring kayaks (one with a rudder and one with neither), a recreational kayak and three inflatable kayaks.
The trip I'm taking, in May, is an exploratory trip that no one in the club has done before, though one person has done a section of it. It looks to be rocky, so I'm not going to risk my carbon fiber Northwind solo. I've decided that I probably have more kayaks than I need and another solo canoe is needed. I'm thinking a Wenonah Wilderness in, T-Formex, might be a good choice.
I can make the Echo go straight, with a canoe paddle, though I admit that I'm probably not the most skilled at that, but the inefficiency of it drives me nuts. I had a friend that was a really good telemark skier. He traded in his old leather boots for some modern plastic ones and complained that he felt bad because they required less skill. I don't think that way. If there is an easier, more efficient way of doing something, I'm all for it.

 

[Idiot Savant]

Here's a video, on canoe design, you guys might find interesting.
Hopefully this link will take you to an interview with designer David Yost.

Video Gallery - Swift TV | Swift's Video Library

Check out the newest Super Canoes and learn more about all things Swift by tuning in to our popular video series.

swiftcanoe.com

If it doesn't, look through their video library till you find it.
He's one of my favorite designers, though I don't own any of his boats.

 

[Idiot Savant]

True, they didn't have CAD or modern materials. They did have a few thousand years to test and optimize the elementary forms. Most modern designs below the water line are simply refinements of basic shapes that were roughed out a long time ago.

Rudders have been added to sailing canoes since at least the 1880s. The picture below shows some of the various styles used on my own canoes. The link below offers some examples of how to rig the lines. Good luck,

Benson

Lines recomended for Old town rig

Does anyone know if there was a standard set, or recomendation for rigging the lines on an Old town sailer?

forums.wcha.org

View attachment 146122

Here's my response.
1-For every speed/length ratio there is an optimum prismatic coefficient. I don't think Chestnut or Old Town used it way back when and I know the native Americans didn't used it.
2-The older boats don't have swede form.
3-The older boats don't have asymmetrical rocker.
Yes, the basic canoe shape is easily recognizable and a canoe from 1912 doesn't look dramatically different, shape wise, from a modern boat, but what is the saying about the details?

 

[M Clemens]

You converted an Esquif Echo into a pack canoe with whitewater outfitting? Interesting......

 

[lowangle al]

True, they didn't have CAD or modern materials. They did have a few thousand years to test and optimize the elementary forms. Most modern designs below the water line are simply refinements of basic shapes that were roughed out a long time ago.

I'm not an historian, but I agree with Benson on this when it comes to all around general purpose canoes. Specialty boats with swede form or asymmetrical rocker might be better at some things but I wouldn't say they are a better design. If they were better designs I don't think there would still be so many traditional boats out there.

 

[Robin]

Yes, the basic canoe shape is easily recognizable and a canoe from 1912 doesn't look dramatically different, shape wise, from a modern boat, but what is the saying about the details?

You mention things like optimum prismatic coefficient, Swede form, asymmetrical rocker, Kevlar, carbon fiber and CAD, all things that make the modern canoe so much better than Chestnuts, yet you still need a skeg on a canoe?
Those Indians, prospectors, guides put a lot more miles on those old canoes than modern recreational canoeists ever do and they did fine without skegs.
Maybe you need to work on your paddle control?

 

[Boreal Birch]

Robin…..
Sounds like a big “AMEN” from the choir!!
……BB

 

[dogbrain]

From my experience with a skegged kayak, a skeg mostly helps in the downwind direction, maybe a little with a broadside wind to reduce weathercocking but that would really depends on the canoe/kayak design. If you paddle primarily on large lakes, the skeg can help keep the boat from broaching in a following wind.

I don't think I would consider cutting through a hull to mount a skeg. Mounting one on the stern seems like it would be be better in almost every way.

Mark

 

[Steve in Idaho]

All points well taken.
First, let me say that the Echo isn't my only boat. Far from it. I have two tandem canoes, two solo canoes, a seakayak (with skeg), two touring kayaks (one with a rudder and one with neither), a recreational kayak and three inflatable kayaks.
The trip I'm taking, in May, is an exploratory trip that no one in the club has done before, though one person has done a section of it. It looks to be rocky, so I'm not going to risk my carbon fiber Northwind solo. I've decided that I probably have more kayaks than I need and another solo canoe is needed. I'm thinking a Wenonah Wilderness in, T-Formex, might be a good choice.
I can make the Echo go straight, with a canoe paddle, though I admit that I'm probably not the most skilled at that, but the inefficiency of it drives me nuts. I had a friend that was a really good telemark skier. He traded in his old leather boots for some modern plastic ones and complained that he felt bad because they required less skill. I don't think that way. If there is an easier, more efficient way of doing something, I'm all for it.
View attachment 146126

Looks like you've already done enough to make it easier if your goal was to make it more suitable for a double blade. And it's all reversible, which is good.

Taking your analogy a bit farther, I also have moved to plastic boots for telemark skiing on steeper terrain. But I still prefer my leather three pins for general BC skiing. If I modified my best all around skis (Karhu 10th Mountain 99/68/84) to accept the next to latest plastic boot system, that would be detrimental to my most common use, and not nearly as effective on the steep as putting those plastic boots on shorter fatter skis.

But it's your boat. At least you aren't doing what the guy who bought my Sojourn did - making it one half of a pontoon rowboat.

 

[gumpus]

I think we can design and build better canoes now, than in the past.

I think this would be a fun discussion but a couple of things are missing:

1) agreement of what "better" means. I'm guessing you aren't thinking about environmental impact or ease of field repairs or or or. There are lots of interpretations of "better"; I could argue that it's better to know you can source s boat from local artisans using local materials than to be totally dependent on so many others to gather materials and design and build a boat...where any glitch in skills or supply chain (or um, tariffs) mean you can't get what you want or need.

2) historical knowledge - we may have glimpses of ancient canoes but we simply do not know what designs people came up with over thousands of years when canoes were in regular use by regular people all over the world.

Since we're speculating, my gut feeling is that we've lost more native knowledge in the 10,000 years preceeding 1500 than we've gained in the last 100-200 (or 500) years through western thinking and experimentation.

I also think you should go for a skeg or rudder on your Echo if it makes you happy.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I'm building a canoe now, with a "Bob Tail" Something Bob Brown did, mostly to conserve the length of strips, needed for a build. That is my reason also. Looking at it though, a rudder could be mounted. I have no plans to do it, as I'll be using a single blade, for propulsion.

Jim