Interesting discussion. My own bear experience in the Adirondacks ended with just a standoff but it has made me rethink my position on carrying. Anyone carrying a shotgun? Any recommendations on an affordable shotgun?
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Rethinking Firearms
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My personal "practice" regarding firearms for personal protection is based upon a lifetime of outdoor experience, but only in the North East US. I recognize that circumstances vary greatly depending upon where you are. You need to understand the ground you inhabit. Around here black bear problems are pretty much limited to those who insist on feeding birds 12 months of the year. I think of that as natural selection. I have a good friend who lives in Alaska and keeps a loaded 30.06 in the outhouse. Some places you're at the top of the food chain, and other places you're not. People are a whole different matter.
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You’re right, RickR. Black bear at our feeder.
Yer gonna need a bigger squirrel baffle on that bird feeder pole.
Those are the two that keep popping up in my research.
Maverick 88 is the cheapest Mossberg. I have the 12 g with 18 inch barrel for canoeing. Synthetic stock, cheap enough if you drop it in the lake you won't cry.
If Black bears make you nervous, Here is an alternative proposed by a well known Survival expert. Mors Kochanski
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3QT-Nrd9Iw&t=17s
I must confess to making a stick as Mors suggests.
I'll have to see if I can find a flare.
Jim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3QT-Nrd9Iw&t=17s
I must confess to making a stick as Mors suggests.
I'll have to see if I can find a flare.
Jim
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Some of you know that I lost a friend and her daughter last year to a grizzly bear, guns no guns, bear spray or not and all the bangers in the world would have made no difference. But that was one in a million incident! I don’t think a handgun other than a 500S&W or similar would do too much on a charging grizzly that is coming at you at 25+ miles an hour... you better be a better shot than you actually are in real life!! That could only aggravate the situation if you are not able to
drop it dead in the spot!! Lot of that gun carrying thing create a false sense of security IMO
drop it dead in the spot!! Lot of that gun carrying thing create a false sense of security IMO
I don't travel in grizzly country, the only trip I've ever been on where a gun was present in the group was one which ended on Hudson Bay (Seal River) in an area "infested" with polar bears.
Although I've tripped with people who own firearms no one has ever questioned whether they should bring a firearm or suggested they were planning to do so (except the one trip above).
As far as carrying a gun for protection from roving homo-sapiens, I have never in my life considered doing so under any circumstances.
There have been two occasions in my life when a gun has been pointed in my (general) direction, both times the hand holding the gun was a police officer, not someone I would want to get in a gunfight with!
Although I've tripped with people who own firearms no one has ever questioned whether they should bring a firearm or suggested they were planning to do so (except the one trip above).
As far as carrying a gun for protection from roving homo-sapiens, I have never in my life considered doing so under any circumstances.
There have been two occasions in my life when a gun has been pointed in my (general) direction, both times the hand holding the gun was a police officer, not someone I would want to get in a gunfight with!
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The State of Alaska Dept. of Fish & Game issued us Remington 870 Wing Masters with a 20 inch Buck Barrel with open sights. Now they use the Marine Magnum 870's because they have the metal parts plated with some sort of nickle coating and a synthetic stock, which makes taking proper care from rust easy. All the years I was walking salmon spawning streams or camping along them, I never had to use it. It did make me feel better knowing that it was nearby.
Lot's of people carry a .44 mag handgun, old timers scoff at that, "Better file that front sight down some Sonny." "Why?" Asks the nimrod from Ohio or Indiana. "So's it don't hurt your anus so much when the bear shoves it up there." Laughs the Geezer, slapping his thighs.
Hitting what you are aiming at with a hand gun takes a lot of practice, a lot of practice! Only on TV does the good guy always shoot straight.
When I was a young man I flew all over the Yukon River Drainage in the backseat of a Super Cub counting spawning salmon in the clearwater streams. I carried a .22 pistol in my survival pack in case slow and low catching up to us. One day I realized that I could not hit the broad side of a barn with it on a good day. I sold it, bought a .22/20 gauge over under Savage 24C, I in fact bought many 24C's until I found one that would put 20 gauge slugs to the same spot as the .22 rimfire barrel. Then I outfitted it with the even more accurate receiver sights. I wouldn't ever want to shoot a bear, but I am pretty sure a 20 gauge slug would do the job. I do know that it will supply Snowshoe Hare and all kinds of grouse with the bird shot and .22 rimfire.
As for having to shoot someone on a canoe trip, what are the chances of that? The people that are going to kill you are going to do that on the highway or you are going to do it to yourself by drinking or running a red light or falling asleep at the wheel. People should be afraid of cars, but they are not, but they kill & maim people all the time. We should be afraid of our beds because a vast majority of people die in them. I am more afraid of the tiny deer tick than I am of something I can see.
One year of my life I carried a M-60 machine gun to and from my job, the only times I pulled the trigger was at work. I would stick the barrel down a tube in the corner, pull the trigger it would go click. The safety officer would give me a thumbs up, and I would put it in the gun rack. I spent many long hot, wet and cold nights laying on a berm waiting for the NVA to come through our wire, They never did and I never had to pull that trigger.
Lot's of people carry a .44 mag handgun, old timers scoff at that, "Better file that front sight down some Sonny." "Why?" Asks the nimrod from Ohio or Indiana. "So's it don't hurt your anus so much when the bear shoves it up there." Laughs the Geezer, slapping his thighs.
Hitting what you are aiming at with a hand gun takes a lot of practice, a lot of practice! Only on TV does the good guy always shoot straight.
When I was a young man I flew all over the Yukon River Drainage in the backseat of a Super Cub counting spawning salmon in the clearwater streams. I carried a .22 pistol in my survival pack in case slow and low catching up to us. One day I realized that I could not hit the broad side of a barn with it on a good day. I sold it, bought a .22/20 gauge over under Savage 24C, I in fact bought many 24C's until I found one that would put 20 gauge slugs to the same spot as the .22 rimfire barrel. Then I outfitted it with the even more accurate receiver sights. I wouldn't ever want to shoot a bear, but I am pretty sure a 20 gauge slug would do the job. I do know that it will supply Snowshoe Hare and all kinds of grouse with the bird shot and .22 rimfire.
As for having to shoot someone on a canoe trip, what are the chances of that? The people that are going to kill you are going to do that on the highway or you are going to do it to yourself by drinking or running a red light or falling asleep at the wheel. People should be afraid of cars, but they are not, but they kill & maim people all the time. We should be afraid of our beds because a vast majority of people die in them. I am more afraid of the tiny deer tick than I am of something I can see.
One year of my life I carried a M-60 machine gun to and from my job, the only times I pulled the trigger was at work. I would stick the barrel down a tube in the corner, pull the trigger it would go click. The safety officer would give me a thumbs up, and I would put it in the gun rack. I spent many long hot, wet and cold nights laying on a berm waiting for the NVA to come through our wire, They never did and I never had to pull that trigger.
The only actual threat I have had canoeing was other paddlers dogs. I have been bitten twice and had the hell scared out of me several more times. I used the carry a pistol, but I realized i would probably hesitate too long in shooting someone's dog. I now always carry bear spray and have used it 3 times--non lethal and it works. Get the kind with the wide cone pattern, not the narrow stream.
As has been said both the Remington 870 family and the Mossberg 500 family are great choices. Both have been made in the millions for good reasons. They are stone cold reliable with even minimal care and aren't sensitive to being properly lubricated or cleaned as many shotguns can be. Both are utterly insensitive to what ammunition you feed them as long as the shell length is at or under the maximum chamber length for the given gun. Most semi-automatic shotguns have some degree of sensitivity to certain ammunition not properly cycling them due to shot weight/velocity changes between different shells. The slide/pump action shotgun has the ability to be carried with an empty chamber but still have several shells in the tubular magazine if desired.
We raised five boys on a farm in a hunting family so I needed a number of relatively inexpensive but safe and reliable shotguns. My personal choice between the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 landed on the 500 due to the "top tang safety" which is on top of the gun at the rear of the receiver so that it can be operated by right and left handed shooters easily. I used to put a good sized dot of white paint in the middle of the safety and one either side of it on the receiver when it was in the "Safe" position. That let me (or others) see from at least 50 feet if the gun was on safe. Here's my Mossberg 835. As you can see the paint on the safety is worn but one could see the position from quite a way off.
The Remington has a "cross bolt safety" in the bow of the trigger guard that is pushed to the left to allow the gun to fire which can make it awkward for a left handed shooter. Otherwise, both are great choices with a large number of variants and a wide variety of aftermarket accessories. One accessory that you might want to look into is the TL-Racker a replacement fore end, the slide part you cycle to operate the action, from Streamlight that has a built in light. Fumbling in the dark with a flashlight in one hand and a firearm in the other is not a good survival tactic.You can buy the flashlight fore end for both the Remington and Mossberg for less than $125.
https://www.swps.com/69600.html
Best regards to all,
Lance
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My thinking on firearms is they are good deter-ant for people because they know what they can do--animals are clueless and except for a bang noise your only option is to instantly stop them--not easy. Anybody here have actual experience spraying a bear. I have read of instant results--anybody actually do it?
I have a Mossberg with the safety on top and have had it accidentally get moved to the fire position, not a good thing if you keep one in the chamber. I'm not positive but I think the safety rubbed against the bottom of my Duluth pack while hand carrying it on a portage.
Bears aren't the only thing you have to be concerned with. Since I've been spending more time back East I have gotten charged by a dog three times,( bitten once) and attacked by a raccoon(probably rabid.) I now carry a .357 Ruger SLR back there. In Ak. I carry bear spray and the Mossberg. I did switch to carrying a .357 instead of the shotgun because it is a PITA to carry. I sold the .357 back to my friend that I bought it from when he wanted it back and would like to replace it with a .44 mag.
I've never felt the need to have a gun as a deterrent for people in canoe country, but just about everywhere else in the outdoors I do. I had an incident hiking with my gf back in college. I kinda regret getting that short barrel Ruger, thinking I would rather something with a longer barrel that would be more visible to people.
If I had to choose between a firearm or bear spray I would take the spray for canoe country and the gun for elsewhere.
Having a gun, especially a rifle, is no guarantee of safety in an attack. The two people I know that have been attacked by grizzlies both had rifles, one was asleep, the other was dressing a deer and his rifle was nearby leaning against a tree. The key is to always have your protection on your person and, I guess, don't go to sleep
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There was one time on a canoe trip that I had to get ready to use either the gun or spray. I encountered a small black bear on a portage and when I yelled at it he came towards me instead of away. I decided I would shoot it if I had to because it was legal and it was the last portage so I was OK with harvesting it. Luckily he did run away. I would not have wanted to be in that position with only a stick or paddle for defense. At one time I thought I would be OK with a stick against a black bear, but after the raccoon incident I don't want to find out.
Bears aren't the only thing you have to be concerned with. Since I've been spending more time back East I have gotten charged by a dog three times,( bitten once) and attacked by a raccoon(probably rabid.) I now carry a .357 Ruger SLR back there. In Ak. I carry bear spray and the Mossberg. I did switch to carrying a .357 instead of the shotgun because it is a PITA to carry. I sold the .357 back to my friend that I bought it from when he wanted it back and would like to replace it with a .44 mag.
I've never felt the need to have a gun as a deterrent for people in canoe country, but just about everywhere else in the outdoors I do. I had an incident hiking with my gf back in college. I kinda regret getting that short barrel Ruger, thinking I would rather something with a longer barrel that would be more visible to people.
If I had to choose between a firearm or bear spray I would take the spray for canoe country and the gun for elsewhere.
Having a gun, especially a rifle, is no guarantee of safety in an attack. The two people I know that have been attacked by grizzlies both had rifles, one was asleep, the other was dressing a deer and his rifle was nearby leaning against a tree. The key is to always have your protection on your person and, I guess, don't go to sleep
.There was one time on a canoe trip that I had to get ready to use either the gun or spray. I encountered a small black bear on a portage and when I yelled at it he came towards me instead of away. I decided I would shoot it if I had to because it was legal and it was the last portage so I was OK with harvesting it. Luckily he did run away. I would not have wanted to be in that position with only a stick or paddle for defense. At one time I thought I would be OK with a stick against a black bear, but after the raccoon incident I don't want to find out.
Be very careful about carrying firearms with rounds in the chamber. A tree branch can brush the trigger. Percussion can cause a round to fire. I know plenty of people, me included that carry revolvers because are they are safe and dependable. Carry with the hammer on an empty chamber. Find a holster with a strap so the gun stays in place. Find one that covers the trigger.
A friend of mine is a mule packer in Washington State on the east side of the Cascades in the Methow Valley. He was coming home from a long trip, on the last leg toward home. He was riding a big QH when his big lead mule got a little playful. The mule rubbed his face on my friend's leg. He managed to rub the holster and advanced a double action revolver to a live round. Then he advanced the cylinder and my friend was struck in the leg. The bullet went in his thigh and came out near his ankle. We would have bled to death if it not for someone passing by since he was near a town. Be extra careful in the bush. .
A friend of mine is a mule packer in Washington State on the east side of the Cascades in the Methow Valley. He was coming home from a long trip, on the last leg toward home. He was riding a big QH when his big lead mule got a little playful. The mule rubbed his face on my friend's leg. He managed to rub the holster and advanced a double action revolver to a live round. Then he advanced the cylinder and my friend was struck in the leg. The bullet went in his thigh and came out near his ankle. We would have bled to death if it not for someone passing by since he was near a town. Be extra careful in the bush. .
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I very much concur, ppine. When I first took my Browning .308 on my backpacking trips, I carried it with a cartridge in the chamber. The rifle does not have a safety, but it can not fire with the hammer in the closed position. After a rest from hiking, I picked up the rifle, and noticed that the hammer was in the cocked position. I must have accidentally scraped it against a bush or branch. That was very enlightening for me. I never again carried with a cartridge in the chamber.
I installed an oversized safety on my Remington 870 police. It's a beast. Never taken it in the backcountry. May bring it if I ever camp in griz or p-bear country, but my main concern is not bears. Sociopaths are less predictable than bruins.
My cousin in AZ is archery hunting bear now, sent me this. Notice anything unusual about this track?
My cousin in AZ is archery hunting bear now, sent me this. Notice anything unusual about this track?
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Toes are interesting. No claw marks. Ursus americana.
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Maybe safer to stay home hiding under your bed. Better off leaving the great outdoors to folks that are not paranoid that something is out to get them. If it is not mosquitoes, bad dirt roads, rain, bears, nut cases or your neighbor, then it's got to be something else that will get you. We are all going to die of something, sometime, there is not one dang thing you can do to stop it.
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