Marshall Lake 2015

[memaquay]

Are all those things I see from the sky that look like farms clear cuts? Sorry for the drift, just curious.

Yes, most of Northern Ontario is a patchwork of clear cuts. The Marshall area area hasn't been logged for over ten years, most activity is going on right around Geraldton at the moment. I have spent a great deal of time working on canoe route protection within the Forestry Management Plans. The Marshall Lake loop was one of my more successful attempts.

 

[Guest]

Be careful Mem. I hear getting on the bad side of the Canadian logging industry is like messing with the mob.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Be careful Mem. I hear getting on the bad side of the Canadian logging industry is like messing with the mob.

I take it that LO you are not familiar with the Forest Management Plans of Ontario and the effort that Mem and some others have been able to input to identify portages that currently exist and make sure those are put into the Natural Resources Value Inventory System..

If the portages are not in the database they are not considered in Forest Management Plans.

No its not like messing with the mob.. I suggest a little research before posting.

lets get you started

https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net/documents/2821/fmpmanual-2009-aoda.pdf

enjoy

 

[Odyssey]

I take it that LO you are not familiar with the Forest Management Plans of Ontario and the effort that Mem and some others have been able to input to identify portages that currently exist and make sure those are put into the Natural Resources Value Inventory System..

If the portages are not in the database they are not considered in Forest Management Plans.

I might never walk any of the portages memaquay and others save from forestry and development. But that's not the point. The point is, that there a few stalwart persons who do this work to clear, document, and defend these historic trails for future generations. I owe a personal debt of gratitude to them, as do my children and children's children…Thank you Rob.
Here's an example. http://wabakimi.org/project/

 

[Guest]

It took me two seconds to find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayoquot_protests

Not in Ontario obviously but I heard stories of people opposing the logging industry receiving death threats or being treated unfairly by law enforcement.

Again a battle being started based on a left field comment... and obviously my comment was based on some truth.

And despite what some people may think or think of what I write; I'm not stupid. It's usually put down for a reason, if it's not, it gets changed or corrected. It may be a joke, half joke, opinion or some fact. Once in a great while I'm just being an ahole, but that's not the case here and it usually doesn't come unprovoked. It's up to you to decide which one. That may require a little research on your part.

Mainly my comment was based on the above type stories, the impression I got that it's not easy to oppose the logging industry in these matters, and my desire to know how they deal with this that I can't get the answer to in a legal document.

 

[memaquay]

No need for discord folks, just a simple explanation can clear things up. Logging is a fact of life up here, many people derive their livelihood from it, so there aren't too many radicals trying to shut the process down. There are a few of us, like Uncle Phil and the Wabakimi Project, who try to work within the system to ameliorate the effects of logging on canoe routes. That is our only focus. Quite a few years ago, some NGO groups came up here to try to shut things down and undid most of the goodwill I had developed with the logging companies in a matter of days, so I don't affiliate with any of those types that protest logging in general. My involvement has decreased in the last few years. A friend of mine sits on the local committees and watches over the Forest Management plans, and once in a while I drop off updated maps tot he ministry so that their information for portages and campsites is up to date. And of course we keep opening up new routes and trying to maintain the ones we have.

When we reopened the Marshall Lake Loop in 2002, it had suffered a huge blowdown. My buddy Rob and I and a few other friends worked like dogs reopening the portages. The blowdown was so thick, that with two chainsaws going and four guys clearing, a one mile port took most of the day to re-establish. We cut more wood than I would in ten years of cutting firewood for my house. Shortly after that, with the help of Hoop, I established contact with the Planner for the forestry company that was set to cut in that area. We were able to reach a very satisfactory arrangement, so that most of the loop remained untouched, with viewscapes intact. It really was a model for future areas. It was shortly after that when the cursed NGO's came up and threw a monkey wrench into the works. However, the result, is that the Marshall loop is intact, and one of my favourite trips, and I hope I can share it with as many people as possible.

 

[Guest]

Well even though I'm not a Canadian, I appreciate the service as well.

I can understand the stance. I know sometimes those environmental groups can be just as bad as the ones they are fighting. I never really know the whole story, so sometimes I'm curious what it's like on the front lines so to speak. I'm glad all is well and it's going peacefully.

I'm usually pretty brash but even I'd be a bit gentle in my negotiations if it were me. It seems that industry has a lot of power in your neck of the woods. Lots of money and jobs on the line. Never makes for easy decisions.

 

[oldie moldy]

I always get lost with these abbreviations, what does NGO stand for? I tried looking it up on google but all they talked about was logging in Africa.

Rob

 

[yellowcanoe]

Some are good some are a PITA some are bad..it all depends on your opinion. I never thought of the Wabakimi Project as an NGO.

I spent some three months on the front lines with the Wabakimi Project and its still ongoing. Its worth considering taking a trip with them.

You have enough down time to actually read a Forest Management Plan and discuss it with those who have been able to take the time to attend the input meetings. All usually understand that compromise is necessary . I remember Uncle Phil around a campfire stating how mad he was that loggers had demolished a series of portages in the Savant Lake area. He met with them at one of these input meetings and they mentioned they simply did not know there was were portage there..The portages were not in the NRVIS system.

Thats why Mems and Uncle Phils work is so important.. Its hard to undo damage that has been done. But if the value has been identified before logging or activity the value ( a portage) must be reestablished after the other activity is finished.

Northern Ontario is a resource based economy just like Maine.. but that does not mean it is a war zone among users.

Again I suggest participation in the Wabakimi Project. You will find out the big enemy is the wind..30 percent of the boreal at one time is on its side.

http://www.wabakimi.org/project/ Not an NGO really as it doesnt lobby but just a work group.

NGO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization

 

[Guest]

Northern Ontario is a resource based economy just like Maine.. but that does not mean it is a war zone among users.

Probably not. But there are a lot of people who are rabid mad against clear cutting of the Boreal rain forest. Just like there are those who are against the clear cutting the South American rain forests.

I know now that these guys are just trying to preserve canoe routes. Given the amount of land that's probably not a concern to the logging companies. I think the danger/violence/mob mentality comes when people try to shut down entire logging operations. I'm not really for clear cut logging, but given that location it's probably the only way the loggers can make it profitable.

I'd be more curious to read the actual unbiased data (not by a government, a logging company or special interest group/NGO) on the impact the clear cuts have on the ecosystem and how long it takes them to recover.

We, in NY, are pretty much against clear cuts in our forests, even on private lands, although I know there have been a few projects by the DEC to study the impacts and create artificial habitats by clearing woodlands. We found this fawn on the edge of a DEC clear cut in central NY:

Not that the local deer populations need much help but clearly this left over brush made a perfect hiding spot for Mama to stash this fawn. Apparently certain birds flourish in these open areas as well.

As far as recovery, we know the Adirondacks were ravaged before the turn of the century but they have almost all but recovered from fires and logging. This didn't happen on it's own, but relatively speaking the recovery time was very fast.

 

[memaquay]

In any case, although there has been logging going on in the area, and there is lots going on in my neck of the woods right now, many of the canoe routes are still classified as wilderness trips. On most of them, you will never see another canoeist, and you only have the chance of seeing a person on the big lakes with outfitter camps. In case some of you missed the report, here is the trip report from when I did it last with the kids. http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/...rthern-ontario

 

[Guest]

Despite the logging I'd wager a bet that it's more of a Wilderness experience than we have here without the logging. The lack of towns and development in general is much less than most anywhere in the Northeast, except for maybe parts of Maine.

The trip reports I've seen from you in the area are a much different than anything I've ever experienced.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Northern Ontario is very much unlike the environment of the Adirondacks. Its human interactions are many faceted. There is a strong First Nations presence. The ecosystem balance is way more than logging or not or how to log... Mining is a real presence.

Whatever your definition of wilderness may be and there are many.. self sufficiency is the word when traveling in Northern Ontario. When we go to the Adirondacks.. we are visiting.

It used to be that I escaped people when canoeing. After many weeks of seeing no one in Northern Ontario I love to hear the stores of people who live and work there.

We can get into lack of towns and development.. and its not always a positive experience. Tourism in Moosonee seems to be way down and that town is sufffering.

 

[Guest]

I know a little bit about sufficiency. I grew up on a farm - we grew our own vegetables, cut our own trees from our own land for wood, tapped them for syrup, raised animals to eat and provide us eggs and took deer that lived on our land. We didn't take more than we needed and we re-forested several acres of land that had been used for crops and grazing previously.

Granted Upstate NY is a much less hostile environment than northern Canada. The lifestyle still intrigues me. As does the native presence.

The story about the Lynx on the Wannigan post had me wanting more folklore.

I love NY and our little slice of wilderness, if you can call it that... but we have pretty much displaced all our natives, and all that lives on are a few names and families on reservations. Any trip that I've ever done I could probably be to a road in matter of a half day at most, if I needed to.

A lot of that is what intrigues me to go.

 

[memaquay]

Well, with the addition of an extra day at the beginning, I can take people up to see a petrograph site on Terrier Lake. Terrier Lake is a spooky little thing, lots of strange things happen in the night!

 

[Guest]

Any suggested reading about the people of that area? Or history?

 

[memaquay]

One book related directly to this area is Traplines North http://traplinesnorth.tripod.com/ There is also Paddle, Pack and Speckled Trout, written in 1960 by Edwin W. Mills. Traplines North is sort of an adolescent targeted story based on truth. The other one is about a dedicated trout fisherman who frequented the Nakina area and the Albany and Ogoki.

If you are interested in pictographs and Anishnabe religion, a good place to start is "Indian Rock Paintings of the Great Lakes by Selwyn Dewdney http://www.amazon.ca/Indian-Rock-Pai.../dp/0802031722 I think you can downlaod that one for free from the Champlain collection. He also wrote the Sacred Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway, or something like that....he was a close friend of Norval Morriseau, and was very helpful in bringing Native art out of the bush, along with Jackson Pollock. Selweyn's life story, "Daylight in the Swamp http://www.billmcleodbooks.com/daylight_review.html will give you a real good taste of the history of canoe tripping up here, and the importance of it to the growth of the country. He also gives one of the best breakdowns of the different types of bugs and the nastiness that they inflict.

More recently, Grace Raijnovich has written "Reading Rock Art", with some new interpretations to the meanings in the pictographs. I haven't finished reading that one yet.

If you really want to go esoteric with the history of the Grand medicine Society, and some spooky stuff, pick up "The Orders of the Dreamed", by Jennifer Brown and Robert Brightman. It is a summary of the diary of George Nelson, who worked in the fur trade all over the North in the early 1800's.

If you want to read about the sad reality that a lot of Nishnabe people live in now, read the highly acclaimed book by Rupert Ross, "Dancing with a Ghost". However, that read is not for the weak of heart.

I'm sure others will chime in with recommendations as well. Oh ya, have a look at the Little Canoe Atlas of the North, a monumental recording of all the canoe routes on the Canadian Shield.

 

[Guest]

All that sounds pretty interesting. My wife, being an English teacher, is quite the reader. Maybe some of that will help whet her appetite for exploring the great white north.

I got to thinking the other day about how I've been talking about trying to kick some butt with the outdoor groups here and get the teachers that run them to do a real canoe trip. I'm not talking about Marshall, but somewhere closer... but if I can convince them and they let me go, I may have to save some vacation for that.

I wish I could send them up to see you during the summer, but I don't think they'd make it.... not to mention what transportation would cost.

 

[Mihun09]

So, in another thread Brad has specific dates pencilled on his calendar. I am assuming the two first and last days are for travel time? I can put in for that time and see what happens. Possibly more time on each end for me though.

Considering Christy cannot do the two long ports at the end of the loop, we won't be going all the way 'round. Rob, you mentioned the wife can potentially attend the first 5 days so that would mean we can spend 5 days getting to the bridge, fishing our hearts out and just enjoying the scenery perhaps?

Just some long range thinkin.

This could be like the old ST gatherings...

Karin

 

[Odyssey]

I'm disappointed "Guest" is no longer here, and unlikely to come north with Mrs Bird. I thought it would be exciting to see those two seeing new places and new faces. I regret my harsh words spoken just before he left here. I hope he's fine and enjoying life.
Karin, I pencilled those dates on our calendar just to give ourselves ample time for travel. I'm nervous of driving at night way up there. I've driven past the results of moose encounters, and narrowly avoided deer and bear myself. We'll likely restrict our driving to daylight hours. I'm unsure we can do the drive in one day. I hate travel and connections. That's my bugaboo.
M has gotten the time off (a small miracle), so we'll go with the flow. Her time off is never guaranteed. That's the way it is in her small office. Anyway, the first day or three I've marked off as "G-Town Rendezvous." The last day or three are tacked on as whatever days. A 5 day trip, 10 day trip, whatever. All we ask is not to set any race pace records for travel. We'll not be anchors to everyone, we just prefer to slow down and smell the ...pines. If I remember I'll bring my rod and reel. I've not really fished, so maybe you can turn me into a fisher and semi-provider. That would be cool. I won't disturb your fishing though. We're of the more tourist kind of trippers. We might sketch and draw, write and take photos, and swim. But we do love to paddle, and portages are a welcome stretch. We've never done those student mud slogs of memaquay's. Avoiding the long portages are fine with us. We'll rise earlyish if need be, and travel if necessary. No problem. My wife's only hang-up is she's nervous of getting lost. That niggles me too a little, it being new country to me. She's never touched a compass and map. That's my fault. We'll address that before spring. She'll still be nervous though.
Sorry for my blab. I'm not trying to tailor this trip to us. We'll do whatever to make this work.