Limited materials, need advice

[Frank]

Hi to everybody,

Writing from Sonora, Mexico. A desert state south Arizona. I live in a "small" town for Mexican standards. I would like to build a cedar canoe and kind of figure it out on space, tools, etc. Only problem is that, so far, I have just find cedar odorata from Peru. I don't know if this will be good for a canoe. Also, the longest boards I found were 1"x8"x14' and planing to build a freedom 17 (has to be room for wife & dog). Can I glue the extra 3' for all strips 17'+? Thinking on do something like 1/14/2 and the flowolling 3/14 and then 6/11, etc...
So, basically need a good advice if I should go for this or better to leave it alone.
By the way, lot of poplar wood here but, guess it is to fragile for a canoe...or not?

Thanks in advance
Frank

PS: looking for a fly fishing destination on west Canada for August 18, thinking on Fernie but, don't know if should try closer to the ocean. Need a place to tourist with wife after fishing so, small towns better.

 

[stripperguy]

So, you're asking about splicing strips? Many of us do just that. Easiest to keep the butt joints on a form. And as you mentioned, stagger the joints over a few forms.

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As far as using Poplar, one of my boat building buddies did that too. Really any lightweight wood will work. It just happens that western red cedar is lightweight AND nice to look at.

 

[Cruiser]

Hi Frank,

I just finished my Freedom last year, I used EWC which also comes in short lengths .... you can do what SG suggests and that will work fine. When faced with skarfing every board, I wasn't going to do that much "on the boat" joining. I just glued the source boards together with a 4:1 skarf, to make ~19-20 foot boards to cut strips from.

I covered this in my build thread:

http://buildersforum.bearmountainboa...php?f=3&t=2244

You may find some useful info there ... since I was posting the link, there was no sense restating what is in the build thread ( I am Cruiser there as well)

Brian

 

[Jim Dodd]

Western Red Cedar is still the top choice !
Splicing strips is no problem,, if you bead and cove your strips !
In other words, BEAD and COVE your strips !!!
If I was building only one canoe, I'd bead and cove !
I'm off the soap box now.

I much prefer to splice my strips OFF the forms ! Most of the time, the strip only touches the form on the very edge of the form. Thus no advantage ! Between the forms, a simple spring clamp works great, especially if you BEAD and COVE ! Sorry stepped up on the soap box again !

Splicing planks is a great method ! I've done it once, but I'm too lazy to do it any more, and just splice on the canoe with a butt joint.
Here's a pic.

A little packing tape, to prevent sticking, on a few scraps of wood, and your splice is perfect ! Yes there is glue in the joint ! Just avoid stress areas in the hull.

Speaking of glue ! be minimal with it's application ! It will save you hours of sanding and scraping later !

Building the Freedom is a great choice ! A popular build ! Steam bending the stems as BMB describes in Canoecraft, is daunting for the first time builder ! Going Stemless is soo much easier, and just as strong ! Actually stronger in my book !

Sorry for the onslaught of info ! But you are the first to announce a build lately !

By the way ! Welcome aboard ! You've tapped into a wonderful resource ! Lots of builders here, willing to share knowledge ! It will be up to you to choose methods ! It's YOUR canoe !

OH ! Don't let The Wall thing bother you, that some people are talking about !

Good Luck on the build !

Jim

 

[frozentripper]

My stripper was built with shorter lengths of eastern white cedar, shorter than the 15'9" max length needed... I didn't scarf boards, just scarfed the first starter strip and after that the bead and cove strips made butt joints easy with a small c-clamp to hold the butt joints together properly, after the strips were glued and stapled in.

I don't know about using poplar for a stripper... poplar doesn't sand well here but it may be a different species in Mexico. Even though EWC sands easily, there was still a lot of time spent sanding down the hull so IMO selecting a wood that sands easily from the outset is a plus. I've heard people are using yellow pine with good results in the southern states and it might be possible to order western red cedar strips online but that's probably expensive.

PS... pre-cut bead and cove WRC strips from Noah's, 16-17' long, $749...


http://www.noahsmarine.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=CSB-R

 

[memaquay]

Can you access white pine? It works well, but adds about 10 pounds to a build. Comes in long clear lengths too.

 

[alsg]

You should scarf joint the first strip that follows the shear; after that butt joints work great and if you have bead and cove the joints don't need to be over the forms

 

[Cruiser]

Hi Frank,

You asked about spanish cedar and poplar for the canoe ... some densities: WRC 23 #/ft^3, Spanish Cedar 29 #/ft^3, Poplar 29 #/ft^3.

If your choices are limited to the spanish or poplar, then either will work for you, they will just be somewhat heavier than WRC or EWC .... that is just the way building works, sometimes you have to use local, the alternative is to source outside the state, maybe a special order ... but that usually costs.

You will be making a lot of choices/decisions as you move forward ... this is part of the excitement of the process. I like to book match my canoes, so I choose to do 2-3 skarf joints on the source boards (as opposed to in this case, 65-70 butt joints on the form) and make my strips from those boards. Once the strips were cut, coved and beaded .... I can lay them out, match them up, mark alignment to stagger joints and number them... I bundle them as right and left and put them back in my strip racks at this point.

When I get the forms setup and am ready to start stripping, I just take them out of the rack in order, glue and line them up to the mark. I find taking those extra initial steps, helps the stripping go easier and faster as there are no distractions ... just align "ready to go" strips and glue.

Once you read over the input here, you will likely find one of the suggestions makes sense for the way you work and your vision of the boat, there isn't just one way to do it, just the way you choose to do it.


Brian

 

[Jim Dodd]

Brian

I like the idea of scarfing the planks, but wouldn't you end up with a lot of scrap, in order to stagger your joints ?

Say you were building a 16' canoe, how long would you scarfed planks be ideally ? Would your joints all be in the same general area, fore and aft ?

Butt joining on the forms, allows me to use up a lot of scrap, Often times two joints on one strip. It also makes it easy to incorporate special designs.

I like the theory of scarfing planks ! Don't get me wrong ! I can see you would save a lot of time stripping !

Jim

 

[Frank]

First of all I want to thank everyone for your nice replays. As usual every answer creates a question:

Stripperguy- Great pics, it is the first canoe I find that is made an entire side and then the other...no problems to match sides?
Brian- Do you have more pics of the glue bords process?
Jim- Do you bend and cove the join in between the strips? Do you bend and cove one by one when placeing them on the hull? would a 45 angle cut will work as well? For some reason stemless seems more complicated cause, fills like building on the air, maybe when getting to that point will be more clear. I kind overthink too much. Also, thinking on go stapleless. Don´t want to talk politics here, I will just say that I have lots of US friends and expect to do some more in Canda. Like I mentioned, planning fishing Canada next summer (I just came back from a fishing trip in Idaho)
Frozentripper- Importing wood all the way down here will be very $$$$ and there are issues to cover when crossing borders with wood. Have to stay on budget.
Memaquay- I don´t know if over here will be different kinds of pine available, pine is just pine and no more
Alsg- Seems the way to go
Crusier- Spanish cedar seems to be the option. I can really get Poplar at very low cost but, it will be raw. I am afraid that won´t be very well kiln dried and don´t want to find out after three monts that everything is moving and cracking. Mexico is not a wooden country, All houses and buildings are brick & cement made. wood is just for closets, kitchens, furniture, etc.

I need to figure out the total cost on wood to make a decision, how many ft3 of wood do I need for the freedom 17?

 

[memaquay]

Depends on quality of wood and how you cut it up. If it's totally clear, 60 board feet should do you.

 

[Frank]

Depends on quality of wood and how you cut it up. If it's totally clear, 60 board feet should do you.

you mean 3/4" x 12" x 60' ?

 

[stripperguy]

Frank,
I submit these three photos, showing how to trim the hull to the keel line when stripping one side at a time. Also, this is a stemless construction. I've built about 30 boats in this way...

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View attachment w3RNwJsTzNTP7u0_IW1oNlnnIJ-V94zgUBPtPYtoyISfivZJg-SOe_jmjO5qQOIr1ABXk49OJdDhHux5YMNJQo1CeBN6-vf7LKSw

If you read through some of my build threads, and those of others, you'll have a virtual step by step for building. If, after reading through some of the threads, you have questions about the various steps, just ask. But be ready, there are many ways to produce similar results. We all have our favorite techniques. What may work well for me may not work for someone else with a different skill set and different aspirations and/or abilities.

 

[alsg]

No Title

That's an interesting method, stripperguy. Do you do strip one side at a time strictly for cosmetic reasons (symmetry on the bottom) or do you think there's some advantage, either ease of construction or stronger end product? My only build (so far) I alternated strips. The "football" on the bottom ends up with more of a weaved look.

 

[Cruiser]

No Title

Jim,
Usually there is more than 1 piece of source lumber ... so that means you can create the skarfs in different areas for each board. Lets say 2 boards, skarf one with the joint towards the last 3rd ... skarf #2 near the middle. Since this is a skarf and not a butt, the joints will be over about a 2-3' length of source board ... so they won't all be in the same place, plus you have some slide end to end (say ~1.5 ft). Additionally, you can reverse the strips, end to end .... the 2 boards gives you 4 separate groups of skarfs, each distributed over a 2-3' length .... this is plenty to get a random pattern. I used 8', 10' & 12' boards and didn't really have that much waste.

The other point is i like to book match my hulls, this gets a little tricky if you try and layout short strips and plan on butt joining stuff.

Frank,
I am usually pretty good about snapping pics, but on the Freedom build at that point, I was racing the weather and got a bit lazy. I have a couple of pics from the cherry trim on the previous build and that is almost the same technique, so hopefully that will help ... the thing to note with skarfing source boards is that I use epoxy (as per the build thread) to glue the boards.

I will be out in the shop tomorrow, I will check for some scraps and mock up the clamping technique I used for the strip boards ... the build thread pic is all I had at the time.

As far as how much wood you need .... that is a straight forward calculation ... look at the plans (or lofted stations) and measure the length of the outside edge of the #8 or 9 station from sheer to keel ... this gives you an idea of the actual distance the strips have to cover for half the boat , if you have the forms done, you can also just measure around the form. If you use 3/4" lumber .. you lose an 1/8" when you bead and cove, so strip width is 5/8" ..... you know the distance, you know the strip width, you can figure how many strips to cover the form.

Once you know how many strips, you have to look at how you are going to cut them ... you lose a saw blades width for every cut, use a fat blade, make more sawdust, need more wood. Jim has posted cutting the strips with a Circular saw many times and that is what I have adopted, I use a thin kerf blade that is less than 1/16" to keep the waste to a minimum. Plan to have waste in that wood, some strips just won't work out, others may get damaged .... you don't want to have to cut more strips once you start building, better to have a few too many, than run out.

 

[stripperguy]

I've found it's the quickest way for me to strip a hull. I'm more interested in performance in the water and on my shoulders between waters. 1st two builds were stripping parallel to the keel line (from David Hazen's methods) and I did not like that method. Switched to a waterline stripping start back in '84, and never looked back. Having spent most of my career (former, hahahaha) in both research and manufacturing, I was responsible for finding the most efficient methods to produce a wide range of products...that mentality spilled over into my personal life, or was it my character that influenced my career??

As much as I speak of performance, I do like a straight joint along the keel line. When you spend hours and days and years staring at that joint, it's important to be content with the aesthetics of a build. Those alternating keel line joints just don't fit ME! Like so many other choices when building a boat for your own use, it's strictly personal.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Thanks for the enlightenment Brian ! I can see and understand your method ! Good ! I try and visualize things, and that helped !

Frank, if you are planning to build the Freedom, I'd find a recent copy of Canoecraft, and digest all that you can from it ! The builders here, including Me, all do things a little different, and that is good to, as we all can learn from each other !

Jim

 

[memaquay]

you mean 3/4" x 12" x 60' ?

Yes, that's right. I'll chirp in here and say I prefer both an inner stem and an outer stem. I have built stemless a couple of times, didn't like the look. I just use cedar for my stems, it steams and bends easy.

 

[Cruiser]

Frank,

For a first build, i would definitely second Jim in getting a copy of CanoeCraft ... that book was my lifeline for the first build. I read it cover to cover 3 times before I started my first build, I keep it in the shop.

The book is designed to take the first time builder through all the steps ... start to finish ... in a logical progression, using methods that are pretty easy to pick up. One of the sections talks about the alignment of that first strip to be parallel with the waterline as SG is suggesting .... offering the reasons and how to achieve.

Once your project is complete, there will areas you love, mistakes only you can see, things you want to do different, a swelling pride of accomplishment and pretty strong urge to build another one.

Brian

 

[Frank]

Yes, that's right. I'll chirp in here and say I prefer both an inner stem and an outer stem. I have built stemless a couple of times, didn't like the look. I just use cedar for my stems, it steams and bends easy.

Yes I plan to do stems. For some reason seems to me to be easier, Specially if not using staples.