Innie or outie

[red langford]

Have you read Kevin Callan's account of going on TV with all his various camping gadgets and telling the host it was a whistle?

If anybody hasn't read his latest book I highly recommend it. A collection of short anecdotes that will make cry with laughter and make you cry with sadness.

 

[Guest]

Now that I know this isn't a belly button issue I can relax. As far as ground sheets go, I've used neither. We waded through leaky borrowed tents till we bought our own. Having gone through several tent sizes and styles, we've finally down-sized our lives to suit being empty nesters. Our new 2-person has a footprint, so I guess we became outties. During a hellacious 8 hour deluge, we found moisture wicking up through our floor. An innie would've been handy. I checked, and found that beneath the footprint the ground was dry. I had neglected to guy the fly taut enough to prevent water draining under the floor/over the footprint. I'll add waterproofing to the tub floor, and make extra sure of my set up next time.
As far as night time expeditions go, I always offer to escort my darling. She doesn't always accept though. I might be chivalrous and old fashioned, but some long and lonely walks can be spine tingly and spooky. Sometimes when I quietly slip out into the night, for my wee walk, the notion occurs to me to nudge my darling awake. Maybe she'll offer me some company? Nope. She's either deep in dreamland, or she's faking it. There's a reason why I don't use a pee bottle. It could lead to "a wee dram" Scotch confusion.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Who sells Tyvek..six by eight feet. I don't want to get in trouble for construction site theft.. And innie users..how do you avoid the non electric slide on anything but level sites?

 

[daveo4]

YC,
Put Aqua Seal or Shoe Goop dots on the tyvek (or any innie) like some do on sleeping pads to keep it from sliding around.
Your'e welcome. No charge!
Dave

P.S. Have a great time in FL!.

 

[red langford]

YC, if you want some of that Tyvek I have a partial roll that is no good to me but there's enough to make all the ground sheets you want.

next time travelling to WCPP drop me a line.

 

[Robin]

I use an innie, it's been good for me. Both my tents are not really high priced affairs and I never really put much faith in their floors holding up in the long run, so I stated with the innie and have stuck with it.
I like the fact that my last piece of defense against water can be renewed when needed. I use duct tape to repair minor pin holes or even larger holes, and sometimes these holes might come from the inside by careless campers.... I also watch the tent floors for bigger holes, but in the event of a huge down pour, I depend on the tent fly to shed the water and my inside "innie" with enough spare material to ride up the sides and ends of the tent.
It has kept me dry.

 

[Rippy]

Well I've been reading some interesting posts here about tarps and pee and such. Not sure how the two got mixed together. I guess our resident cat throwing bear expert got it started. I'm a hammocker so I don't have a dog in the hunt. Over at the hammock forum they have a slogan "Elevate Your Perspective" so I thought you ground dwellers might like to know what it looks like from up here. There has been some discussion in the past on a defunct web site about buying a new composite canoe and then being afraid to use it for fear of scratching it up. I believe it was YC that said that the first thing she does is drag it across the parking lot thereby making it a functional canoe. In the same light I would suggest pitching your brand new $300-$400 tent in the back yard, innie or outie, and then take a chef knife and poke a bunch of drain holes in the bottom. That way if it does collect water it will drain back out while you sleep. Also, cut a big hole right in the center and you won't have to leave your tent to pee. Problem solved, innie or outie makes no difference as long as you have the proper drain holes.

As far as pee calls, it has been discussed at the hammock forum and some use a nalgene bottle. Most of these guys are ultra light hikers not canoeists so I can't imagine they carry too many extra bottles. I thought about it very briefly once and immediately tossed that idea out. In the hammock my butt is always in the lowest spot. I know sooner or later I'm going to spill or slosh or something and then sit in pee the rest of the night so that's out. What happens is I wake up with that full bladder feeling and check the clock hoping that the sun is going to come up at any moment. Of course it's 3 am so I lay there in my warm cocoon for 10-15 minutes hoping it will go away. Finally I tell my self "self, maybe you'll see northern lights if you get up". On my last fall trip I finally saw northern lights during a pee call, so I'll keep telling myself that story to sucker me out of the hammock.

Mihun, my theory is anyone who thinks they might like to try hammock camping should take the plunge because you're probably a hammock type person already. If you are considering doing so find the hammock forum and read read read cause there are a lot of variables to set ups. Also, sleeping in a hammock takes a little practice at home getting comfortable so don't buy one and take off on a trip with out spending a couple nights in it close to home. Once you figure out where your sweet spot is you'll love it. I use a full length thermarest in my hammock with about 12" folded over on the foot end to lift my knees slightly. My backside never gets cold even in winter weather.

 

[Seeker]

I don't really have the "pee in the bottle" option, unless they have come up with something for us women to use recently that would be compact and sanitary. My aim isn't that good in the dark when half asleep and the vestibules are too cramped for such a venture. So I have to dodge the rain and bugs and be quick about it. Although I was wondering if hanging would lessen the need since there would be less pressure on the bladder.

Diapers anyone?

No. Shenis. http://www.shenis.com/Shenis/Home.html
No personal experience though... Just showed it to my daughter years ago. Don't think she bought one.

Who sells Tyvek..six by eight feet. I don't want to get in trouble for construction site theft.. And innie users..how do you avoid the non electric slide on anything but level sites?

Silcone caulking will work on a silnylon tarp, I've heard that it works on Tyvek, and I'm not sure how it would do on a polypro one.

I'm thinking of trying a hammock this year, but there is still the "every night" pee thing to deal with which is easier to execute from a tent.

This might depend on your age. I personally find it a pain in the butt to get up off the ground. As a hammock hanger, I just have to put my feet down and walk to a tree. In the winter, I carry my hunter's pee bottle, which you can pretty much use without really getting out of the sleeping bag... just roll your feet toward the ground, unzip the bag, and do your business... (yeah, I know, yours might take a little longer, but you get the idea.)

When I was in the Army (steel pot multi-use helmet army, not Kevlar helmet army), we just peed in the helmet and threw it out of the pup tent into the drainage ditch/trench.

 

[memaquay]

You know, that hammock stuff is starting to get me interested. How bug secure can you make them, cause I trip in some of the buggiest areas ever. No-see-ums especially, can you keep those little buggers out? I like the idea of stopping basically anywhere when I'm solo and just hanging up for the night.

 

[DuctTape]

Bug security in a hammock is equal to a tent.

And to stay on-topic, I am an outie even with the hammock. a small piece of tyvek to step on while changing under my tarp and sitting in the hammock.

 

[yellowcanoe]

You know, that hammock stuff is starting to get me interested. How bug secure can you make them, cause I trip in some of the buggiest areas ever. No-see-ums especially, can you keep those little buggers out? I like the idea of stopping basically anywhere when I'm solo and just hanging up for the night.

Its possible you could get butt bit. You see you really do not need a sleeping bag. But some sort of rear end armor might be good. An underquilt is overkill in the summer. Ask Shearwater what else can happen.. he got butt poked by something four footed.

 

[Mihun09]

~~This might depend on your age. I personally find it a pain in the butt to get up off the ground. As a hammock hanger, I just have to put my feet down and walk to a tree. In the winter, I carry my hunter's pee bottle, which you can pretty much use without really getting out of the sleeping bag... just roll your feet toward the ground, unzip the bag, and do your business... (yeah, I know, yours might take a little longer, but you get the idea.)

When I was in the Army (steel pot multi-use helmet army, not Kevlar helmet army), we just peed in the helmet and threw it out of the pup tent into the drainage ditch/trench.~~

I will be 53 this Summer. I have to pee every night, even at home, although I do try the Rippy method of holding out if I can, wait for light or the rain to stop.

 

[DuctTape]

Its possible you could get butt bit. You see you really do not need a sleeping bag. But some sort of rear end armor might be good. An underquilt is overkill in the summer. Ask Shearwater what else can happen.. he got butt poked by something four footed.

Possible. Likely one will use something beneath them even in summer. Convection really is noticeable when there is nothing but the person and the hammock. It is nice and cooling when the temp is hot, but under 70*, it starts to feel chilly. A permethrin treated hammock all but eliminates the bug issue from the bottom as well.

 

[Shearwater]

in 2011 Yellowcanoe and I were at Little Tupper Lake looking for Robin's campsite. I put my hammock quite low to the ground the first night. About 2:00am something poked me and then poked again. I automatically smacked at it with my elbow just before I thought 'bear burrito' and then "I hope that's not a skunk".

I side sleep and flip around a lot and so had real problems with Hennessy-type angle sleeping. Ended up with a Jack 'R Better Bear Mountain hammock which has a great way of flattening out the hammock. It's flat sleeping with all of the comforts of a soft bed, great on the back, getting in and out of bed standing -- no skinny air mattresses or crawling through mud/dirt/sand when getting in or out of a regular tripping tent.

 

[Guest]

I wish I could say waterproofing spray works.

I used to use a carefully fitted innie, held in with velcro tabs. After a few trips I switched to an outie. Then last year I was in a rainstorm and noticed a few damp spots in the tent floor. Luckily, I the innie was in the tent bag so I laid it out. In the morning there was water in the tent but the innie kept all my stuff dry. I'll try to waterproof that tent's floor but I'll probably continue to use both innie and outie with it. It's a Sierra Designs Zeta2 with an OEM outie. I also have a Zeta3 that I've used only with an outie, so I expect it will hold its water, so to speak.

Speak of holding one's water, you older guys will understand about the enlarged prostate problem, i.e., having to get up several times a night to dribble an ounce or two. I've used a Nalgene bottle for years for that purpose. It's bright yellow (of course) and has a big "P" on the side. It also comes in handy in the canoe.

 

[yellowcanoe]

It seems if your tent has the Jakes foot corner assembly it behooves you to adjust the tension so the tent corner itself is as close to the ground as possible. If its airborne water can get underneath footprint or no.

http://www.nemoequipment.com/explore/technology/pole-supported-technology/

 

[Guest]

I got up in the middle of the night to find our fly plastered against the outside walls. It was a bit windy too. Tightening up the guys helped. If the rain was running down the walls and under the floor, there can't have been much of a gap space for it to find its way. Maybe the accumulating moisture was from inside? I saw no beads of water on the inside walls. I dunno. If we have nothing but perfect weather from now on, I'll have nothing to experiment with. I'd hate to become an innie, just because I'm failing to pitch my tent properly. (I'm not bashing any innies out there.) If we're lucky (depending on how we look at this) we'll have rain, glorious rain, and continue our danged damp investigations.

 

[Guest]

It seems if your tent has the Jakes foot corner assembly it behooves you to adjust the tension so the tent corner itself is as close to the ground as possible. If its airborne water can get underneath footprint or no.

http://www.nemoequipment.com/explore/technology/pole-supported-technology/

Yup, Jake's foot. I've never noticed a foot lift up except on uneven ground. In that case I stake it through the foot instead of the cord. Holds it down nicely, esp. when cross-staked.

 

[Peach Canoe]

This is an interesting topic and it comes up a lot-- but surely there's no right or wrong. It seems everybody has to encounter an experience that drives them down one path or the other. For years we used a ground sheet outside the tent, and from time to time we got wet from below. We talked about it, and our motivating rationale proved to be that we were more concerned with damaging the tent floor than staying dry.

So we switched to putting a simple replaceable plastic sheet inside, coved up the tent walls about 6". We've never been wet since; the tent floor could be mosquito netting and we'd still be dry. Our old MEC Tarn 3 has had tent poles and bungees replaced, but the floor has not been a concern-- actually I never think about the floor, I just assume it leaks.

 

[Mama]

Well, I was an outie person until we were camped in the Boundary Waters a couple years ago and we got a couple-few inches of rain in a short period of time and wow! Next trip we of course cut out a big pieces of plastic to use as an innie and are of course now big believers in using an innie, although technically we are using an innie and an outie as we are also using a groundcloth.