​Eric Sevareid on double blades in canoe

[yellowcanoe]

Hey Mem, I got kicked out of that church, Excommunicated, Now shunned!. Probably for bringing up the demon canoe! Now I would like to get ahold of said Tronald Dump ( we went to see Capitol Steps Friday) and get him in the most unseaworthy craft I can find.. He would never know.....

Somehow our canoe camping stuff fits fine in our little 19 foot trailer. In Death Valley I think I might like A/C and a bed. What we wont miss is packing up a tent and pitching camp in the evening.. all that little stake it out stuff adds two hours in a day when we'd rather be sightseeing. Any more plush and any trailer would cost more than our house.

You can blame it all on my upbringing. I started canoeing a week a year from 1963 ( more in college.. once a week) till 1983 then canoed two weeks a year and sea kayaked three times a week ( we lived on Long Island Sound) then helped found ConnYak and then Connyak got a FreeStyle canoe brochure somehow.. And I was trying to learn to solo... two months later I was on my first solo canoe trip.

Its been all downhill and tumbled since then. I live more in kayak country now sorta but on a lake near the ocean.

Its been many years since I read "Canoeing with the Cree". I borrowed Tom's copy on my way to a FreeStyle symposium

Its all paddling folks.

Now should we debate the Might and Right of Light???

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I'm glad you opened the door, Kim. Now I can come out of the camp trailer closet.

We could cuss and discuss the pros and cons of tent vs trailer vs pop-up. I've been all over the map on that.

Relax, everybody. I still love my Hennesy Hammock.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I'm glad you opened the door, Kim. Now I can come out of the camp trailer closet.

We could cuss and discuss the pros and cons of tent vs trailer vs pop-up. I've been all over the map on that.

Relax, everybody. I still love my Hennesy Hammock.

Not even going there! you can bet that when we do our Lake Superior trip this summer there is no way hubby and I even hitched like oxen can tow a trailer with our boats. One canoe and one yang other thang.

One thing I do not want to do is u turn a trailer on a logging road. Even with the Mors Kochanski winch!

 

[Guest]

Its been many years since I read "Canoeing with the Cree". I borrowed Tom's copy on my way to a FreeStyle symposium

It had been a long time since I read “Canoeing with the Cree”, and interesting to note what bits surprised me on a re-read.

Another mention that caught my eye this read was the following:

“On my first morning in Canada I received a great thrill – I saw my first wild deer.”

I am familiar with the whitetail decline that bottomed out in the early 1900’s, but it’s funny to think that Sevareid didn’t see his first until he was 18 and today they are eating my flowerbeds every morning.

https://www.google.com/search?q=whi...vHED-HI2lZHSBRKMJEsWVI=&imgrc=bJtcg8cC4HMWaM:

 

[Boreal Birch]

Back in the day, while going to college at Bemidji State, I took some film into a drug store to get developed (remember those days). A week or so later when I picked them up the guy at the counter, commented that it looked like from my pictures that I liked to canoe. He did too, over coffee we talked about where we had been. Turned out the guy was Walter Port!! He told me about his trip to the Bay, and I told him about mine to Brent Lake. He told me about the book his friend had written about their trip. We became friends, Walter was always glad to see me come in with new film, and a visit. He never said anything about the double bladed paddles. I tried them twice once in a old Klepper folding kayak, which I liked, once as a duffer in a 18 foot Souris River canoe. As the guy in the middle I had to time my stroke with the the bow paddler, of course. I got a good work out as I stroked as much as my two friends did. We flew up the Moose Lake chain on our way to Knife Lake. On the return trip I managed to snag the stern seat, while the other two traded off in the middle. We all agreed that single blade in bow or stern was better than double in the middle.
...........BB

 

[Gdwelker]

Just to really keep things confused, remember that some of the first North American kayaks were paddled with single blades. And rolled that way.

Personally, I like to continue the confusion. My go to paddle combination on my ruddered sea kayak is a bent shaft ZRE, and a greenland paddle for the rough water. For the Seawind it is the ZRE and a 270 euro blade for self rescue and rough water. For the solo Hornbeck, it is a 270 euro. Try things, see what works for you, then go paddle,

 

[Connecticut Yankee]

The Olympics, back in the day, at least through the 1956 games used one hull for kayak and canoe, an open boat we would call a canoe, I believe they were called pea pods. The history buffs can correct me here if need be. Back in the '70's I was a member of the Washington Canoe Club and they had a couple of these old boats that they would start us off in learning the high kneel technique.

 

[Muskrat]

For flying across a lake I prefer a set of oars, but that's just because I can't sail, but then again there's outboards. I'm coming to realize single blades are garbage compared to a 12 ft stick. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Mars]

Grist for the mill.

Caveats:
I have zero experience or knowledge about Kayaks.
I am a novice canoer with zero formal canoe paddling training.
MOST of my canoeing is tripping and I avoid swift water where possible.

That said;
Last summer I took a paddle making course with Caleb Davis at the ADK museum. His resume was substantial and he seems well versed in the whole canoeing world. Now I don't know much about the who's who of the canoe world so I'll just say that he seems solid and well read/ educated on the topic at hand.

His paddle making class starts off with a bit of a history lesson on paddles and their types, styles, sizes, designs, etc. In that bit of academia, before ripping into the wood, he did discuss the double ended paddles their purpose/ reasoning and use. I found that list of reasons and the conversation supporting them well thought out and sensible. Especially the position about it's use for flat water and keeping the boat tracking well. There was a lot more information and reasoning behind the double paddle concept that escapes my ability to reiterate or reinforce here.

I imagine some of you either know Caleb or have at least taken his class and could ferret more of the reasoning he uses from him to better explain the topic.

Suffice it to say that I was convinced enough that I planned and attended a second class with him and rather than make another single bladed paddle, I made a double ended one. Like the single blade I made before it came out AMAZING and I am very proud of my work. To the point here however is; the double ended paddle has made two trips and one day paddle with me and I genuinely liked using it. Especially on a large open water crossing such as a lake.

Ultimately as has been suggested, "different strokes for different folks." I like mine.

Just my amateur observations/ experience.

 

[yknpdlr]

I have known Caleb as a good friend and paddling partner, and Boy Scout fellow staff trainer for more than 20 years. He is full of knowledge and skill. When we first met it was obvious he was an excellent paddler. I let him paddle in my then brand new cedar strip and was amazed how he heeled it over to the gunwale and made the boat dance with almost no noticeable movement of the paddle. Last summer I assisted as we taught a group of 8-15 year olds how to paddle canoes for a race they were about enter the next day. Caleb was an excellent instructor for the kids. I always learn something new when I am with him, whether it is for myself or for improved teaching technique.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I have zero experience or knowledge about Kayaks.

I am a novice canoer with zero formal canoe paddling training.

the double ended paddle has made two trips and one day paddle with me and I genuinely liked using it.

Just my amateur observations/ experience.

Your feelings about the double blade paddle are the commonplace and dominant ones among amateurs and novices, and double blades are one of the primary reasons that kayaks significantly outsell canoes.

It requires no skill or training to paddle a hull straight with a double blade. It takes a lot of learning, practice and skill to do so with a single blade. In my experience, most people who paddle canoes with single blades never learn many of the efficient forward stroke and turning stroke skills. They just kerplunk and kerplunk on, switching hands, ruddering, and putting unnecessary strains on their wrists, forearms and shoulders. (This forum is not reflective of "most people".)

I was fortunate that almost 40 years ago, when I was paddling California whitewater in a canoe with a double blade, a master canoeist told me I wasn't "really canoeing". He told me I would never learn how to paddle with a single blade unless I used it, and advised me to retire my double blade. Immediately! And to paddle the very next rapid with my single blade. I did so, clumsily but successfully.

It wasn't until many years, canoes, kayaks, paddles, training and instruction later that I realized what Bob Foote meant by "really canoeing". I now define "canoeing" as propelling a paddle craft with a single blade and "kayaking" as propelling a paddle craft with a double blade. The United States Canoe Association agrees.

Does that mean people shouldn't paddle canoe-shaped hulls with double blades? Of course not. People can and do use whatever they prefer or enjoy. That is an old discussion and the subject of a recent poll thread here.

But it remains incontrovertibly true that one will never learn single blade paddling skills by using only a double blade.

Caleb Davis

I've never met Davis but have seen his paddles. HERE is his website. He favors paddles with long, skinny blades. I disagree with just about all his stated views on paddle blade physics, but in a sense none of that matters. Paddlers who do become adept with the arsenal of single blade techniques can paddle canoes effectively and enjoyably with all sorts of blade shapes, or even with a shovel or tree branch.

 

[yellowcanoe]

On Caleb Davis. I find I differ from his philosophy on long paddles with flexy shaft.. And some other things. But he has led many well attended paddle making workshops so that others may learn and do on their own.. His long skinny paddles work well in Canadian Solo and Tandem which is his main focus of teaching. His long paddles aren't useful to me in skinny solo boats. But I do have several and made one in his class. He never uses dedicated solos so there is a reason for what he does..

However I am fortunate to count him as a good friend and I enjoy his company and he has given much encouragement to paddlers learning new skills. He has been a WCHA and Maine Canoe Symposium for more years than I have ! He and partner Gail are good people

 

[yknpdlr]

I do have a number of Caleb's long shaft long blade paddles. But for my solo boat I wanted something shorter, so he made for me a short shaft ottertail, which works great in my Placidboat rapidfire. My cruising stroke tends to be Canadian style more than much of anything else.

 

[Mars]

Your feelings about the double blade paddle are the commonplace and dominant ones among amateurs and novices, and double blades are one of the primary reasons that kayaks significantly outsell canoes.

It requires no skill or training to paddle a hull straight with a double blade. It takes a lot of learning, practice and skill to do so with a single blade. In my experience, most people who paddle canoes with single blades never learn many of the efficient forward stroke and turning stroke skills. They just kerplunk and kerplunk on, switching hands, ruddering, and putting unnecessary strains on their wrists, forearms and shoulders. (This forum is not reflective of "most people".)

I was fortunate that almost 40 years ago, when I was paddling California whitewater in a canoe with a double blade, a master canoeist told me I wasn't "really canoeing". He told me I would never learn how to paddle with a single blade unless I used it, and advised me to retire my double blade. Immediately! And to paddle the very next rapid with my single blade. I did so, clumsily but successfully.

It wasn't until many years, canoes, kayaks, paddles, training and instruction later that I realized what Bob Foote meant by "really canoeing". I now define "canoeing" as propelling a paddle craft with a single blade and "kayaking" as propelling a paddle craft with a double blade. The United States Canoe Association agrees.

Does that mean people shouldn't paddle canoe-shaped hulls with double blades? Of course not. People can and do use whatever they prefer or enjoy. That is an old discussion and the subject of a recent poll thread here.

But it remains incontrovertibly true that one will never learn single blade paddling skills by using only a double blade.



I've never met Davis but have seen his paddles. HERE is his website. He favors paddles with long, skinny blades. I disagree with just about all his stated views on paddle blade physics, but in a sense none of that matters. Paddlers who do become adept with the arsenal of single blade techniques can paddle canoes effectively and enjoyably with all sorts of blade shapes, or even with a shovel or tree branch.

This is an unfortunate response.

It kind of reinforces why I rarely post on forum threads. It's the, territory of experts and the "who's, who," to do so it seems.


Thanks for the advice (critique). Maybe I'll catch you out on the water someday; I'll be easy to spot. I'll be the novice/ amature flailing about. Maybe using a single ended paddle maybe not.....

 

[Alan Gage]

This is an unfortunate response.

It kind of reinforces why I rarely post on forum threads. It's the, territory of experts and the "who's, who," to do so it seems.


Thanks for the advice (critique). Maybe I'll catch you out on the water someday; I'll be easy to spot. I'll be the novice/ amature flailing about. Maybe using a single ended paddle maybe not.....

I've never met Glenn in person but am acquainted with him on several paddling forums. Although I can see where you could have taken it the way you did I'm pretty sure it's not how Glenn intended it, nor was it how I read it.

Keep participating. This is a great place.

Alan

 

[yknpdlr]

Mars, if you are normally canoeing in the Adirondack region, perhaps we could get together for a bit next season to go over some proper single blade stroke techniques with a Caleb paddle or two, and with other paddle styles as well, to see what works best for you. Just let me know.

Just remember the secret is practice, practice, practice, with lots of time on the water.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Mars you're young in your canoe career. After you get lots of water miles your experiences may change your thoughts
Some of us get old. And experience comes from old.
Don't get upset. No one was anointed special. We all know that
The single blade learning curve is steep at first. The double has a flatter curve but Lordy it's taxing to perfect the forward power stroke so at the end of the graph there is the steep slope
We're all in this together

 

[frozentripper]

Just remember the secret is practice, practice, practice, with lots of time on the water.

Yep, school of hard knocks and all that, or maybe it's hard strokes... as my old rowing coach used to say to us novices, your rowing technique sucks, what's needed here is mileage... MILEAGE. Then he'd follow us around in the motorboat hurling abuse for several hours while we racked up the necessary mileage (can you tell that was a long time ago, Canajuns now measure distance in kilometers).

I don't think recreational canoeing needs to be that rough but it might help to know that things will probably improve with <grunt> mileage, since bad technique will not be rewarded with greater enjoyment and efficiency over the long haul. Still, the bottom line is enjoyment so if you're not interested at all in improving paddling technique, you might find your time's just as well spent seeing the sights and and simply being on the water.

Mars is probably long gone, but I would not agree that message boards are the domain of experts only. Everybody has an equal opportunity to speak and in some instances that much democracy might not be a good thing since initially to the unfamiliar eye all opinions can look equally valid.

Anyway.... stroke... stroke... stroke.... where have I heard that before... oh yeah Billy Squier seems to have had something to say about that, I wouldn't be caught dead listening to that stuff.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Thinking back to when I started canoeing...it wasn't pretty. My first trip ( tandem) was up the Oswegatchie.. I think we hit each bank and most of the alders.

We have novice rowers out on the lake the first week in September. Its amusing to sit on the deck in the early am with coffee.. No other entertainment required... These are all beginners so there is lots of megaphone coaching.

 

[Guest]

It requires no skill or training to paddle a hull straight with a double blade.
But it remains incontrovertibly true that one will never learn single blade paddling skills by using only a double blade.

While I think that while Glenn is largely correct that it requires little skill or training to paddle a hull straight with a double blade (well, maybe not going straight in a whitewater or slalom kayak. . . . ) there is a more to paddling than going straight. Tides, currents, wind and wave all come into play and there is a lot more to be learned about efficiently wielding a double blade than simply going splish, splash on alternate sides.

The double has a flatter curve but Lordy it's taxing to perfect the forward power stroke so at the end of the graph there is the steep slope

Hence why even kayakers benefit from lessons or stroke clinics.

And Glenn’s lawyerly background choice of specific wording is again correct; one will never learn single blade skills by using only a double blade. You won’t learn how to ride a bike by only driving a car or how to fly fish by only trolling. Etc.

Most (all) folks I know who use a double blade in a canoe also carry a single blade and use it in their preference of single stick favorable conditions. I probably use a single blade less than anyone I know, but I didn’t touch a double for the first 20 years, until I got a pack canoe. And since a wrist injury cut my single blading to a painful minimum I use a double 95% of the time.

It is curious that there is a defensive hint of double blade scorn from single stick purists that is largely absent in the other boating realms; polers don’t look down their noses at paddlers, sea kayakers don’t pfffttt at whitewater boaters, canoe and kayak sailors don’t think rowers clueless.

Learn to single blade. Learn to double blade. Learn flatwater and whitewater paddling techniques. Learn to pole and sail if those seem intriguing. All of those methods of propulsion overlap in lessons to be learned about boat control, reading water, setting wind or ferry angles and more.

I relish having more than one arrow in my propulsion quiver, and feel no need to devalue paddlers who only single blade. Poor stuck on the single stick souls, there they are with a kindly tailwind and no sail. It’s just sad.

While I don’t like too much company around when I am paddling I welcome anyone into the small boat fold in hopes that they will stand by my side in protecting the breadth of what we still have available; undammed rivers, clean waters, free launches, living estuaries and oceans. That extends even to rec kayakers who get in my way splish splashing on an indeterminate course (um, excepting when a half dozen of them suddenly peel out 20 feet ahead and directly in my path after I have committed to run a line through a minor rapid. I could have done without them on the river).

But that gets into another realm of paddling awareness; behavior and courtesy. Not clogging up boat ramps with hand carrayable boats. Not strewing a yard sale of paddles and gear around busy canoe or kayak launches. Not pissing off the locals by tear assing down roads to a launch or take out in a hurry to get there or gone. Wearing some blaze orange during hunting season, not paddling through a raft of decoys, avoiding the opening day of trout season or the shad run unless you are fishing, keeping out of a buoy marked channel or off to one side on motor boated rivers instead of sprawling four abreast in midstream.

Yes, I’ve seen (and see) all that and more. That discourtesy and lack of awareness does the paddling community no favors.

Lots of little things. When I come upon a wading fisherman in the river I give a courtesy cough to get their attention and point left, point right and which side would you like me to pass shrug my shoulders.

A little do unto your neighbor and some situational awareness goes a long way.

Lessons are great. So are paddling technique books and videos. Paddling with skilled companions who will help correct self-taught bad habits works too.

Mostly just get out there and do it.

BTW, I appreciate Glenn as a contributor. He knows his stuff, from paddling technique to canoe history. If we could teach him some shop skills, epoxy techniques, regunwaling process or even which end of a hammer to hold he could fix all of his derelict canoes.