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Carrying a gun when canoe traveling just because
- Thread starter Glenn MacGrady
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Thanks to Glen for letting this thread play itself out. Guns and Bears are always good outdoor fodder. Only thing that draws more comments is Coffee Brewing or instant. The administration most likely will not close a rabid coffee debate but, we did have one administer put a halt to a gun debate.
I have used a short barreled 12 gauge shotgun, with rubber buck shot to encourage cranky moose to move along in residential areas, that had mothers worried about the safety of their children. Had a co-worker trying to chase a crabby moose away from a elementary school at minus 40 (C/F) degrees. After about a hour of looking for the moose he finally found it. Shot it in the derrière with rubber slug to get it moving. A rubber slug at that temperature is as solid as steel. The moose dropped dead as a door nail. The mighty hunter looked around to see if anyone had seen what had happened. No one was out and about at those temperatures. He then glanced at the elementary school, one whole class was lined up at a window watching!!
Moose was salvaged, meat was dispatched to the Food Bank for distribution to the needy.
I have used a short barreled 12 gauge shotgun, with rubber buck shot to encourage cranky moose to move along in residential areas, that had mothers worried about the safety of their children. Had a co-worker trying to chase a crabby moose away from a elementary school at minus 40 (C/F) degrees. After about a hour of looking for the moose he finally found it. Shot it in the derrière with rubber slug to get it moving. A rubber slug at that temperature is as solid as steel. The moose dropped dead as a door nail. The mighty hunter looked around to see if anyone had seen what had happened. No one was out and about at those temperatures. He then glanced at the elementary school, one whole class was lined up at a window watching!!
Moose was salvaged, meat was dispatched to the Food Bank for distribution to the needy.
I've always carried on trips in Ak. because of the grizzly bears and the spawning salmon that attract them. But as I hope to start tripping back East and the memory of being attacked by a racoon is fading I think I'd be OK with spray only.
I'll give you some food for thought. Two fatal bear attacks in the last 20 years within an hour of NYC.
And my husband hit a 350 lb bear with MY new car in Kinnelon NJ. in 2009. It was only 7k of damage on a three month car so the insurance co refused to total it.. He wishes he had had a gun. The Bear had four broken legs and god awful injuries but was still alive. The State cop on the scene said he could not shoot it ; that it had to be done by Fish and Game.. ( sometimes hooman regs are just insane) My take is that the Statey thought about all the paperwork he had to do.
I don't carry in the East but man those red squirrels.
Bummer about your car, I’m surprised they didn’t total it out.
There is no shortage of bears in Pa. I just think that because of the large human population in this area that the proportion of outdoor recreators to attack victims presents a smaller and acceptable risk to me than on Ak.
I’ve seen at least four bears this year. Two out on hikes and one in the yard and one from the boat. Two encounters were within 50 feet and on one of them my wife yelled “get the gun” before it became obvious he was running away instead of towards us.
Here is one from a couple years ago.
There is no shortage of bears in Pa. I just think that because of the large human population in this area that the proportion of outdoor recreators to attack victims presents a smaller and acceptable risk to me than on Ak.
I’ve seen at least four bears this year. Two out on hikes and one in the yard and one from the boat. Two encounters were within 50 feet and on one of them my wife yelled “get the gun” before it became obvious he was running away instead of towards us.
Here is one from a couple years ago.
aww.. He is cute!
That appears to be a good sized black bear as the ears appear small and the belly is low.
We have big black bears in Pa. Vern, he might have been over 400 lbs. and that was June. A few years back I went to take a look at two bears that were shot by the same party about five miles from my house. They were both estimated by Fish and Game to have had a live weight over 700.
I don't know if it's still true but I read a study done about 40 years ago that said Pa. had the largest black bears of any state and they also had the highest reproduction rate with the number of cubs per sow.
I don't know if it's still true but I read a study done about 40 years ago that said Pa. had the largest black bears of any state and they also had the highest reproduction rate with the number of cubs per sow.
Yup, Pennsylvania seems to have some big bears! 879 pound record! 879 pound bear!!
Holy leapin lizards, that was a monstrous black bear!
Black bears are a threat because there are lots of them. We had tracks out behind the house for the first time in the sage brush after the drought and fires. Some black bears are predatory on humans, a small percentage maybe 2-4%. But if you are around them a lot you may meet a couple that are hard to get rid of. It happened to me in Alaska. A big boar was fishing for salmon. He would leave but show up later, always on our 6, behind us. It was unnerving. I feel better with dogs around when I am working or focused on task. You don't know what order they come in.
The griz are territorial. Let them know you are coming by making noise. Avoid eye contact. Retreat. Give them a way out. The salmon eating bears in Alaska were intimidating because of their huge size. They gave me much less trouble than the pesky black bears.
I will probably never see a polar bear, but I am happy about it.
I carry a revolver on canoe trips.
The griz are territorial. Let them know you are coming by making noise. Avoid eye contact. Retreat. Give them a way out. The salmon eating bears in Alaska were intimidating because of their huge size. They gave me much less trouble than the pesky black bears.
I will probably never see a polar bear, but I am happy about it.
I carry a revolver on canoe trips.
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Buffalo Bore ammo has quite the reputation. Used in my 12ga pump and my 9mm. Traveling alone and being in my 70s have changed my perspective especially in grizzly country. i mostly avoid those areas these days by myself.
I’ve read good things about Buffalo Bore ammo and have watched some interesting videos as well about its penetration, mostly in the big bore handguns, 454 and 44’s . Ive never seen it available up here. Occasionally you may stumble on a box of 12 ga brenneke slugs tho (better chance of winning then lottery) but we have a pretty good alternative with our home grown Challenger ammo and luckily it’s carried at pretty much every Canadian Tire.
When we travel out west with our RV, I bring my 30-30 lever gun with 190 gr. Buffalo Bore ammo, for brown bears. When hiking or paddling out west we always carry bear spray.
A little light.
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PP……
“A little light.” I really don’t think so. I would I would rather have it than a .44 magnum handgun that most nimrods think of as being their salvation & protection. What I would really like to have if in conflict with a big bear would be a 12 gauge with slugs. For the occasional nut case/Sociopath, double 00 buckshot.
“A little light.” I really don’t think so. I would I would rather have it than a .44 magnum handgun that most nimrods think of as being their salvation & protection. What I would really like to have if in conflict with a big bear would be a 12 gauge with slugs. For the occasional nut case/Sociopath, double 00 buckshot.
Tim Sundles, owner of Buffalo Bore, has shot more grizzly bears than we will ever see and he developed the 190 grain hard cast 30-30 round specifically for large grizzly bears. If Tim tells us this round will flatten a grizzly it is good enough for me.
Buffalo Bore is introducing a truly Heavy 30-30 Winchester loading. This new load utilizes a 190gr. custom Hawk Bullet and gives the venerable 30-30 here-to-for unrealized power and is designed so that the person who owns a 30-30 can now reliably kill elk or moose sized game. The 30-30 can now be carried as a defensive tool in grizzly country and will be much more effective in stopping a grizzly attack than any other 30-30 ammunition in the world. This heavy 30-30 load is not designed for deer, although it will kill deer and if you line them up right, it will kill three or four deer with one shot……….
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I know lot a native hunters that kill many moose a year with the standard 170 grain 30-30 loads. I also met a man I Wyoming that got his yearly elk with the same load. These men were excellent shots and and knew the anatomy of the critters they were harvesting for meat. As a young man I shot many whitetail deer with the 150 grain bullet most if not all took a single shot at close range. Nothing I like better than the model 94.
Don’t know Tim Sundles, but doubt he has shot more grizzly bears than I have seen. I spent 39 years in fisheries management, my summers on salmon spawning streams doing stream counts. I have seen lot’s of grizzly bears.
I sold my last 30-30 nearly fifty years ago. I did inherit my fathers .32 Winchester Special, so will see if Buffalo Bores makes this wonder bullet in .32 Caliber also.
Doubt I would stake my life on the words from a guy that is trying to sell bullets without seeing some better data than his hype in type.
Don’t know Tim Sundles, but doubt he has shot more grizzly bears than I have seen. I spent 39 years in fisheries management, my summers on salmon spawning streams doing stream counts. I have seen lot’s of grizzly bears.
I sold my last 30-30 nearly fifty years ago. I did inherit my fathers .32 Winchester Special, so will see if Buffalo Bores makes this wonder bullet in .32 Caliber also.
Doubt I would stake my life on the words from a guy that is trying to sell bullets without seeing some better data than his hype in type.
This is from Buffalo Bore website on their special 32 caliber ammunition.
I would use item 29B on beasts of well over 1,000 lbs. if I had the need to do so, but I normally step up to a .338 Winchester Mag. (or bigger) for that type of task. Still, if a 32 WS rifle was what I had, I’d use this load for that purpose without hesitation.
At 2,150 fps, item 29B pushes its 200 gr. bullet as fast or faster than typical 170 gr. 30-30 loads……what’s not to like here with 30 grs. more bullet, of bigger diameter, arriving on target faster than a 170 gr. 30-30 bullet would? See my recorded velocities below;
ITEM 29B
➤ 2,175 fps -- Winchester 1894 circa 1980’s Commemorative - 24-inch barrel
➤ 2,130 fps -- Winchester 1894 circa 1906 - 22-inch barrel
➤ 2,044 fps -- Winchester 1894 circa 1980’s Commemorative - 16-inch barrel
Item 29B is a different story regarding accuracy; with my two 1980’s vintage model 1894s shooting that heavy bullet quite well with their 1:14 twist, but my older 1906 Winchester has the old/original 1:16 rate of twist and will not shoot that heavy bullet as accurately, but it is still accurate enough for close-range defensive work against a bear or moose. I believe Winchester started using the faster rate of twist in the 1950s, but I am not sure when Marlin or Savage went to the faster 1:14 or 1:12 twists. Any of the faster (faster than 1:16) twist rate barrels should stabilize the 200 gr. bullet very well and give good accuracy out to the range/distance limits of the cartridge.
This is serious ammo for the old 32WS and if you are fortunate enough to own one of these great old rifles, these loads will/can do more effective hunting of big game than the original ammo, by far.
Take care and have fun,
Tim Sundles
I would use item 29B on beasts of well over 1,000 lbs. if I had the need to do so, but I normally step up to a .338 Winchester Mag. (or bigger) for that type of task. Still, if a 32 WS rifle was what I had, I’d use this load for that purpose without hesitation.
At 2,150 fps, item 29B pushes its 200 gr. bullet as fast or faster than typical 170 gr. 30-30 loads……what’s not to like here with 30 grs. more bullet, of bigger diameter, arriving on target faster than a 170 gr. 30-30 bullet would? See my recorded velocities below;
ITEM 29B
➤ 2,175 fps -- Winchester 1894 circa 1980’s Commemorative - 24-inch barrel
➤ 2,130 fps -- Winchester 1894 circa 1906 - 22-inch barrel
➤ 2,044 fps -- Winchester 1894 circa 1980’s Commemorative - 16-inch barrel
Item 29B is a different story regarding accuracy; with my two 1980’s vintage model 1894s shooting that heavy bullet quite well with their 1:14 twist, but my older 1906 Winchester has the old/original 1:16 rate of twist and will not shoot that heavy bullet as accurately, but it is still accurate enough for close-range defensive work against a bear or moose. I believe Winchester started using the faster rate of twist in the 1950s, but I am not sure when Marlin or Savage went to the faster 1:14 or 1:12 twists. Any of the faster (faster than 1:16) twist rate barrels should stabilize the 200 gr. bullet very well and give good accuracy out to the range/distance limits of the cartridge.
This is serious ammo for the old 32WS and if you are fortunate enough to own one of these great old rifles, these loads will/can do more effective hunting of big game than the original ammo, by far.
Take care and have fun,
Tim Sundles
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I have guns but rarely carry them, although there is always a 9mm in my glove box. Now that things are getting crowded in what's left of "wilderness" in the lower 48, I may change my mind, but so far, I haven't had a scary situation to make me rethink toting in the canoe. Big bear country is a different story. I carry a 12 ga riot gun where griz is roaming, and have had situations requiring it to be a noise maker but not a deadly weapon. I'd feel awful shooting even an aggressive bear, because after all, that's what real bears do, and I'm in their territory. Why is it people want bears who don't act like bears? What is that doing to the gene pool? Anyway, I wouldn't shoot a bear unless it was VERY necessary to save someone's life.
A few years back, my spouse and some girlfriends were preparing to launch kayaks in an urban park when some miscreant nearly got himself shot by charging me with a knife in his hand and furiously screaming because the women and me told him his pit bull needed to be on a leash. His dog was upsetting Bogan who was leashed and saw the pit a a threat. The dude with facial tattoos just came charging with his knife balled into his hand so only the handle was showing. He doesn't know how close he came, since my 45 was under my shirt, but the sheriff deputy responding said he'd already been shot once, bullet entering under his chin and exiting next to his eye/nose (close quarters fight likely). He told the officers who caught him down the path that he indeed was crazy, but had put the knife away before they arrived. I offered to identify the pocket knife's distinctive handle, but the paperwork was apparently too much for a simple menacing charge, so they left it to me to travel to the county seat to file charges (wouldn't press more serious charges) after they finished their report (next week). They really didn't want to waste their time because he would be released (despite being a prior offender) and likely not suffer any long term jail as a result of his actions unless he physically assaulted someone. In addition to our party, I watched that guy accost an elderly couple walking a small dog (who also reminded him of the leash law), and a couple with small children, getting into the dad's face (knife in hand) with his kids screaming from fear. So, in urban areas I will carry. Hopefully, places like the BWCA won't succumb to too much as it becomes more and more visited by human refuse. In hindsight, I probably should have shot the guy. It was justified in the moment and most likely would have saved someone else some grief down the road.
A few years back, my spouse and some girlfriends were preparing to launch kayaks in an urban park when some miscreant nearly got himself shot by charging me with a knife in his hand and furiously screaming because the women and me told him his pit bull needed to be on a leash. His dog was upsetting Bogan who was leashed and saw the pit a a threat. The dude with facial tattoos just came charging with his knife balled into his hand so only the handle was showing. He doesn't know how close he came, since my 45 was under my shirt, but the sheriff deputy responding said he'd already been shot once, bullet entering under his chin and exiting next to his eye/nose (close quarters fight likely). He told the officers who caught him down the path that he indeed was crazy, but had put the knife away before they arrived. I offered to identify the pocket knife's distinctive handle, but the paperwork was apparently too much for a simple menacing charge, so they left it to me to travel to the county seat to file charges (wouldn't press more serious charges) after they finished their report (next week). They really didn't want to waste their time because he would be released (despite being a prior offender) and likely not suffer any long term jail as a result of his actions unless he physically assaulted someone. In addition to our party, I watched that guy accost an elderly couple walking a small dog (who also reminded him of the leash law), and a couple with small children, getting into the dad's face (knife in hand) with his kids screaming from fear. So, in urban areas I will carry. Hopefully, places like the BWCA won't succumb to too much as it becomes more and more visited by human refuse. In hindsight, I probably should have shot the guy. It was justified in the moment and most likely would have saved someone else some grief down the road.
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