"Ecopoxy" Resin

In another active thread, I found out that Helman Canoe has been using something called Ecopoxy resin in its canoes since 2010. I thought maybe that's just Hellman's marketing name for some mixture they use but, no, it's the name of an actual product.


According to this grammatically-challenged article, Ecopoxy resin is made from non-toxic plant oils, unlike petroleum-based regular epoxy, and:

"Ecopoxy provides many advantages over traditional epoxy resins. In addition to being environmentally friendly, ecopoxy is also less expensive than petrochemical-based epoxies and offers superior adhesion properties.

"Additionally, ecopoxy is stronger than traditional epoxies, with a higher flexural strength which makes it perfect for applications where flexibility is key. Finally, ecopoxy has a low odor and is UV stable, making it an ideal choice for projects that require exposure to sunlight."

Later, the somewhat confusing article seems to contradict itself about cost, by stating: "When it comes to cost, epoxy is typically the more affordable option. However, ecopoxy may be slightly more expensive due to its environment-friendly production methods and ingredients."

What I want to know is, if Ecopoxy has been around for canoe manufacture at least since 2010 and has so many benefits over regular epoxy, why does no one (that I've heard of) use it except for Hellman?

For 2024, Swift announced a secret formulation Epoxy Finish as a $600 USD (same on the CAD price list) upgrade. I've seen Bill Swift videos where he claims this Epoxy Finish can be put on much thinner than regular epoxy, and save pounds per boat, while maintaining or even increasing flexure and strength. He further says the boat weights on the Swift price lists will be updated in the spring of 2025 to show how much weight the secret Epoxy Finish will save on each canoe model. Could this Swift formulation be Ecopoxy?

Anyone who knows anything about Ecopoxy or Hellman's formulation or Swift's new secret formulation, please chime in.

Hey Glenn,

I’ve checked into it, I could be mistaken but I believe it is similar to standard epoxy but there are some bio based / plant type ingredients utilized as part of their formulation. I know they have a few different products depending on the exact application. For a while, I was really researching home builds, I’d probably have them along with the big one in the canoe world, and a couple others all on the short list for further research if I was going to move forward on something like that. Or for repairs / refinishing work which might be coming my way. On Swift, my understanding is the UV shield is not epoxy based but that they are offering an epoxy option that can be utilized for the main construction resin on the layup.

PaddleTime said:

Hey Glenn,

I’ve checked into it, I could be mistaken but I believe it is similar to standard epoxy but there are some bio based / plant type ingredients utilized as part of their formulation. I know they have a few different products depending on the exact application. On Swift, my understanding is the UV shield is not epoxy based but that they are offering an epoxy option that can be utilized for the main construction resin on the layup.

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Ah, thanks, I realize that I misspoke in my OP above. It's the new UV Shield, not the new Epoxy Finish, that is supposed to save weight and be more flexible and durable than standard gel coat. The UV Shield, the composition of which is unstated, saves weight because it can be sprayed on about 1/3 thinner than standard gel coat (6 mils vs. 15-20 mils). The UV shield will come at no charge on all 2024 Swift canoes in clear coat and those with two-tone champagne bottoms.

The new Epoxy Finish, which is a $600 upgrade, will also strengthen the hull. Hulls with Epoxy Finish will also have UV Shield. Swift's standard resin is a hybrid epoxy-vinylester.

UV Shield and Epoxy Finish are explained in the 2024 Bill Swift video in the OP of THIS THREAD.

But I'm still interested in why no one else besides Hellman touts Ecopoxy resin.

First that I've heard of it. If it's UV stable, maybe I could do away with the spar varnish on the strippers and save a step or two? When I run out of epoxy (probably after the next build), maybe I'll give it a shot.

I'm also wondering if someone with enough epoxy exposure to become sensitized might be able to switch to this and keep building.

Glenn, your quote doesn't seem to contradict itself if the blurb is making a case for the price difference between 'epoxy' and 'ecopoxy'. If it's a product made outside of the U.S. then translation may account for the grammatical weirdness.

Glenn MacGrady said:

Later, the somewhat confusing article seems to contradict itself about cost, by stating: "When it comes to cost, epoxy is typically the more affordable option. However, ecopoxy may be slightly more expensive due to its environment-friendly production methods and ingredients."

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I have heard of Ecopoxy used for table pours but didn't know it was used in canoes.

I remember looking into it quite a few years ago when I was building canoes all the time. Unfortunately I can't remember why I decided not to use it.

Alan

As someone terribly sensitive to all the epoxies i was elated to see this post. However, The site doesn’t show anything other than casting products which are completely different chemistry.

If it is really cheaper, better and less toxic it would be wildly popular.

Alasgun said:

As someone terribly sensitive to all the epoxies i was elated to see this post. However, The site doesn’t show anything other than casting products which are completely different chemistry.

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I suppose builders who are interested in getting info about the exact formulation and product used for composite lamination could contact Hellman Canoe and ask them.

Alasgun said:

The site doesn’t show anything other than casting products which are completely different chemistry.

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Can you explain, in a nutshell, what's different about casting epoxy?

Alan

When I went by the Hellman shop some years back, Bob showed me a sample of the layup. It was impressively resistant to cracking, as if it were more ABS type than a fiberglass laminate, bending it at some severe angles.

Difference between 2:1 and 4:1 epoxy laminating resin:

Epoxy resins come in a variety of ratios, depending on the desired application. The most commonly used ratios are 2:1 and 4:1. A 1:1 epoxy resin is not typically used as a laminating resin as it is not as strong. It is often used for river tables, table coatings and art including jewelry. It is not recommended to be used with fiberglass or other reinforcements. For more information on a 1:1 epoxy resin, click here.

A 2:1 and 4:1 epoxy resin are popular laminating epoxies and can be used as an adhesive on its own, with a filler or can be used with fiberglass or other reinforcements such as carbon fiber or Kevlar. They are more rigid and provide better physical properties such as strength, chemical resistance, abrasion resistance and heat resistance. A 2:1 is softer, more flexible, and easier to measure out than a 4:1. This makes it the most popular laminating epoxy. If you need a strong part that won’t flex much, you will want to go with a 4:1 epoxy.

My opinion is not experience based but rather taken from articles available on-line, written by folks in the business. Like most things’s pioneer’s have been playing with all manner of things in “different manners” than intended and SOME have made remarkable discoveries along the way. Someone as small time as myself want’s a product with a proven history enabling me to have reasonable expectations of an outcome.

Their Flowcast epoxy is listed as a 2:1 mix ratio and it's also quite thin. Thinner than the Raka resin I normally use.

All their blurbs and literature (that I've seen) only mention pouring and they never mention laminations. I wonder if there's a reason it wouldn't work with cloth or if they're just going after a target market with their marketing.

Alan

Alan Gage said:

Their Flowcast epoxy is listed as a 2:1 mix ratio and it's also quite thin. Thinner than the Raka resin I normally use.

All their blurbs and literature (that I've seen) only mention pouring and they never mention laminations. I wonder if there's a reason it wouldn't work with cloth or if they're just going after a target market with their marketing.

Alan

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Alan (or anyone), could you estimate how many liters of epoxy it would take to do a hull. I'm trying to understand how justifiable Swift's up-charge of $600 is for epoxy.

In addition, I've read it's harder or takes longer to do a hull with epoxy than vinylester or polyester resin. For us non-builders, why would that be?

I never kept track of how much epoxy it took when I was building my composite boats because it would have been too depressing. I'm sure the commercial builders using vacuum bagging, infusion, and much better technique use much less.

I'd guess there is a huge cost savings with vinylester and polyester because of overall volume in the manufacturing industry. It seems to be used pretty much universally and I imagine, as a result, that it's available quite cheaply.

It's also generally much thinner than most epoxy resins so it will be easier to spread and will saturate cloth much quicker. The thinner viscosity also makes it easier for infusion (thicker epoxy will flow through the laminate much slower). I'd guess it also helps when it comes to squeezing out extra resin during vacuum bagging.

As far as I know all epoxy resins are sensitive to UV where vinyl and polyester resins are not so an epoxy hull will need extra coatings for UV protection.

I haven't followed any of Swifts marketing on their new epoxy hulls but I'm curious what the supposed benefits are supposed to be? Not that innovation and change are bad things but it's not like vinylester hulls were falling apart or anything.

Alan

Alan Gage said:

I haven't followed any of Swifts marketing on their new epoxy hulls but I'm curious what the supposed benefits are supposed to be?

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The benefit is $600 more revenue per boat for Swift.

Oh, the supposed benefit for the customer? Stronger hull. Bill Swift and Matt Steffler demonstrate the standard "hybrid epoxy-vinylester" resin (which they later just call vinylester) vs. the new $600 epoxy resin using force gauge demonstrations, and also answer epoxy questions, beginning about 25:50 of this video:


All aspects of Swift's marketing, including their techno-persuasion, hull-glitterati, interviews, Ben Hur video productions, etc., are superb.

People who kept track used to say 1 1/2gal. of Epoxy resin, for a typical solo canoe.
I'm sure I go over that, with an extra layer up to about the 3" water line, plus flotation chambers. Both I don't build without.

Jim

Jim Dodd said:

People who kept track used to say 1 1/2gal. of Epoxy resin, for a typical solo canoe.
I'm sure I go over that, with an extra layer up to about the 3" water line, plus flotation chambers. Both I don't build without.

Jim

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That would be 5.7 liters, and if you go a bit over that, let's call it 6 liters. According to the Ecopoxy site, 6 liters of FlowCast cost $180 USD.

Now I just need someone to compute how much 6 liters of a decent canoe-building epoxy and vinylester would cost.

System Three silver coat is a very good canoe type epoxy. On Amazon, it is $299 Canadian for 1.5 gallons (5.7 litres) or $207.50 US. Not a huge difference. I usually use about 2 gallons total for a solo build.
Interesting, Ecopoxy on Canadian amazon is $265 for 8 litres. It is a 1 to 1 mix. I'm not sure how "eco" it would be, most of these table top epoxies are exactly the same. I have been using them a lot for my woodworking classes because they are dirt cheap. The 1 to 1 is quite a bit thicker than an epoxy like silver tip, might be ok for fill coats. I did a test panel with one of these, and it seemed to be ok. Perhaos I will order some ecopoxy for the upcoming semester and see how it performs.

edited one last time- I was looking at the wrong ecopoxy, the flowcast is 257 Can for 6 litres, and it is a 2:1 mix. For that price, I will stick with system 3. On the flowcast container, it still says it is an "irritant", and it says it has "biologicals" in it, whatever that means. I would be suspicious.

In my (limited) experience, 6 gallons of 2:1 RAKA (4 gal resin, 2 gal hardener) seems sufficient to build three 16 foot(ish) solo canoes. (about 7 1/2 liters / hull) The 6 gallon kit lists for $363.53 (US) on their website so $120(ish) per hull.

Possibly worth it if demonstrably stronger, less risk of health issues, significantly better for the environment or one is just a die hard for buying local but a 50% increase in cost of an input is not terribly appealing and, I would guess, unlikely to see widespread commercial use..