Grade A boat or a second?

I received a new canoe this weekend that I had ordered some time ago. Upon inspection, I found a patch, about 2” x 3”, in the chine of the boat and a corresponding dull area in the gel coat in the same location but on the outside of the boat. I wrote the maker and here is part of the reply that I got back:

“I noticed a pulled thread in that location once the hull was completed and had the laminating crew carefully put a patch over the spot with the pulled thread to match the interior as closely as possible. That is not a structural repair, just cosmetic to cover the pulled thread.”

The maker went on to say that he could easily sell the boat at full price and saw no reason to replace it or offer a partial refund.

I’m curious what others think about this.

No expert on the subject but something sounds fishy here. If they felt the need to apply a patch, it seems to me that it wasn't a first quality canoe so it should have been classified as a second. Again, I'm not an expert but that's how I see it; for whatever that's worth.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.

snapper

Agree with snapper. It's a "blem". Ask for a replacement.

Same as above. It's not what you paid for. It's probably as good as new, plus a little weight? Maybe a discount? +++

I think the biggest issue with this is that the builder did not bring it to your attention and you found it on your own.

I would think a respectable builder would explain the pulled thread issue and ask you how you felt about it before sending you the boat. If you agreed to accept the blemish I would think they would also ask whether you wanted the cosmetic patch or not.

It’s definitely the wrong approach to have a defect, no matter how small, and send it to the customer with a noticeable patch, and then pretend the boat is perfect.

If this is a hand layup you would think they would have a disclaimer about minor defects as part of the individuality of building hand layup canoes to cover themselves.

It wouldn't bother me and I would be satisfied with the explanation assuming this was a mid-tier or lower manufacturer. I'd be a bit more put out if it was a high end manufacturer (such as Swift) that stresses aesthetics and charges accordingly.

There seems to be a trend with canoe prices rising dramatically and people expecting perfection, which I'm sure helps drive canoe prices up even farther because it takes extra work to deliver that. It's like a cycle that feeds itself.

And all this for a product we're going to run into rocks and drag over beaver dams. I still view it as a functional piece of equipment where aesthetics is secondary.

Alan

Alan Gage said:

It wouldn't bother me and I would be satisfied with the explanation assuming this was a mid-tier or lower manufacturer. I'd be a bit more put out if it was a high end manufacturer (such as Swift) that stresses aesthetics and charges accordingly.

There seems to be a trend with canoe prices rising dramatically and people expecting perfection, which I'm sure helps drive canoe prices up even farther because it takes extra work to deliver that. It's like a cycle that feeds itself.

And all this for a product we're going to run into rocks and drag over beaver dams. I still view it as a functional piece of equipment where aesthetics is secondary.

Alan

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several years ago I bought a new Swift Kippawa kevlar fusion, Bill Jr took a great deal of time showing me it was a prototype (first commercial release) with 2 VERY minor flaws- slight bumps in front of the bulkheads where the 2 vacuum ports were, because they were still working on the timing for removing the bag and were a little slow, allowing the resin to start to jell, and a single green thread in the yellow gelcoat that is almost invisible to the naked eye. Even back then quality was a major concern and, although neither blemish affected the performance or esthetics, he felt beholden to explain in great detail the hows and whys, took $600 off, and offered free outfitting and 2 new paddles.
Just like you wouldn't take delivery of a new car with a poor repair and mismatched paint whether it's a Porsche or a Kia, why would you accept a canoe that way???

From my experience with selling restored Kevlar canoes, a patched hull never sold for anything near what a non patched hull of the same vintage would fetch.
A dealer knows this and the price of a new patched hull should be adjusted imo.

scoutergriz said:

several years ago I bought a new Swift Kippawa kevlar fusion, Bill Jr took a great deal of time showing me it was a prototype (first commercial release) with 2 VERY minor flaws- slight bumps in front of the bulkheads where the 2 vacuum ports were, because they were still working on the timing for removing the bag and were a little slow, allowing the resin to start to jell, and a single green thread in the yellow gelcoat that is almost invisible to the naked eye. Even back then quality was a major concern and, although neither blemish affected the performance or esthetics, he felt beholden to explain in great detail the hows and whys, took $600 off, and offered free outfitting and 2 new paddles.
Just like you wouldn't take delivery of a new car with a poor repair and mismatched paint whether it's a Porsche or a Kia, why would you accept a canoe that way???

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Swift seems to have made their reputation on perfection and they charge accordingly. Perfection takes a lot of extra time. If I was buying a new canoe from Swift I'd probably expect perfection too. Or I'd expect a discount if it wasn't.

Other manufacturers are still building canoes that look and paddle great but they aren't aiming for perfection. Some people will happily pay less for this and others won't. If I was buying a new canoe from one of those manufacturers I'd be much more likely to let something small slide.

For instance Bell/Northstar canoes have had a very small ridge in the gel coat where the two halves of the mold meet. They've been that way for decades and it's caused exactly zero problems. From Northstar this is acceptable but from Swift it would not be.

But all that is a bit of a moot point because I don't ever see myself buying a new canoe (or car). I'll just keep making my own imperfect hulls or buying imperfect used hulls.

Alan

It's not up to the manufacturer to tell a customer that they should be satisfied with a new boat with a patch. I'd be disappointed knowing that I was taken advantage of and then insulted by an arrogant manufacturer plus the fact that the resale value is reduced. I'd tell them that I'm disappointed with the boat and disappointed with their response and if they don't offer a discount I'd return it even if it cost me money (and I've done exactly that). No boat is perfect but a patch on a new composite boat at full retail price is unacceptable.

Alan Gage said:

Swift seems to have made their reputation on perfection and they charge accordingly. Perfection takes a lot of extra time. If I was buying a new canoe from Swift I'd probably expect perfection too. Or I'd expect a discount if it wasn't.

Other manufacturers are still building canoes that look and paddle great but they aren't aiming for perfection. Some people will happily pay less for this and others won't. If I was buying a new canoe from one of those manufacturers I'd be much more likely to let something small slide.

For instance Bell/Northstar canoes have had a very small ridge in the gel coat where the two halves of the mold meet. They've been that way for decades and it's caused exactly zero problems. From Northstar this is acceptable but from Swift it would not be.

But all that is a bit of a moot point because I don't ever see myself buying a new canoe (or car). I'll just keep making my own imperfect hulls or buying imperfect used hulls.

Alan

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However if for instance that same manufacturer has a glitch in their manufacturing process and leaves the entire mold seam unfilled so there is a channel 4-5 mm wide and deep around the entire hull and charges you $4k for a first quality boat and offers to send you free gelcoat to repair your new boat then you demand a new boat and question their integrity. Then if you order a pair of thwarts years later and receive the most warped thwarts you've ever seen you return their trash and conclude that they simply lack integrity.

gumpus said:

However if for instance that same manufacturer has a glitch in their manufacturing process and leaves the entire mold seam unfilled so there is a channel 4-5 mm wide and deep around the entire hull and charges you $4k for a first quality boat and offers to send you free gelcoat to repair your new boat then you demand a new boat and question their integrity. Then if you order a pair of thwarts years later and receive the most warped thwarts you've ever seen you return their trash and conclude that they simply lack integrity.

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The boat I’m referencing cost $4,000 plus. I assume that meets your definition of a top tear maker.

gumpus said:

It's not up to the manufacturer to tell a customer that they should be satisfied with a new boat with a patch. I'd be disappointed knowing that I was taken advantage of and then insulted by an arrogant manufacturer plus the fact that the resale value is reduced. I'd tell them that I'm disappointed with the boat and disappointed with their response and if they don't offer a discount I'd return it even if it cost me money (and I've done exactly that). No boat is perfect but a patch on a new composite boat at full retail price is unacceptable.

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^^This. Particularly the arrogant part.

I wouldn't be happy if I thought I was getting a sub-par boat in return for my cash. But what is sub-par? Like some have said, there are different levels of fit and finish expected from different manufacturers.

Swift is probably the best known for consistency in fit and finish. Every boat I have seen from them at every show has been perfect, minus one that had a little "bob" in the fabric bias near the bow. And that was being sold as a blem because of it.

Northstar has some bomber layups and hull designs, but if you look over their body of work you will see resin creases from the vacuum bags, frayed ends in the fabric, and misaligned fabric weaves on many of their canoes. Structural problem? I doubt it. But it doesn't LOOK like a $3-4k unit.

I have a Nova Craft that looks like they aerated the clear gel coat. Tiny bubbles everywhere. Several others I have seen from them have issues with the gel popping off the hull from mild hits.

Stories abound.

Bottom line, different manufactures have different defects that are more common to them than to others. The buyer must look at that body of work and decide what probable compromises are worth it to them.

I am curious as to who made your canoe, and bummed that it isn't everything you expected it to be. That is a sucky situation.

It's one thing to have imperfections from the manufacturing process, but when it gets to the point that it needs a repair it sounds like a blem to me. The way it went down shows a lack of integrity IMO.

lowangle al said:

when it gets to the point that it needs a repair it sounds like a blem to me.

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Maybe I'm not understanding correctly but the way I'm interpreting it I wouldn't call it a repair but rather a cosmetic cover-up. When I hear the word 'repair' I think of a structural fault or a something caused by mis-handling (crack or gouge).

There was a cosmetic flaw in the hull and the builder chose to cover it with a small patch thinking it would be less conspicuous. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't? None of us have seen pictures of what it looks like now and only the builder knows what it looked like before.

What I envision as "thread pull" is a pretty minor issue and probably not something I'd give a second look at. Maybe this one was particularly bad?

If the builder thought it was something that needed to be addressed it must have been something he thought a buyer would not be happy with. I guess, if that's the case, he shouldn't be surprised the buyer also wouldn't be happy with a less than invisible patch.

Alan

I doubt the integrity of the boat is compromised, but still it was repaired. If it was so minor as to just being an exposed thread I would think a dab of epoxy would have fixed it and not a patch.

Robin said:

From my experience with selling restored Kevlar canoes, a patched hull never sold for anything near what a non patched hull of the same vintage would fetch.
A dealer knows this and the price of a new patched hull should be adjusted imo.

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I think this is the key. Anything that has to be explained to a potential buyer lowers the resale. Especially on a boutique item like a composite canoe where potential buyers will be deciding if the drive is worth it.

I have owned 2 canoes, a bell and a mad river, with the words “blem” or “2nd” clearly branded into the royalex. Both were minor cosmetic issues and hardly visible. I’m certain the original owners didn’t pay msrp. Your canoe seems to fit that description. If you paid with a credit card I would challenge the charge to apply some pressure.

lowangle al said:

I doubt the integrity of the boat is compromised, but still it was repaired. If it was so minor as to just being an exposed thread I would think a dab of epoxy would have fixed it and not a patch.

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Not that it changes the argument but when I hear "pulled thread" I'm imagining either a loose strand or a thread out of place in the weave that disrupts the pattern of the cloth; either of which would be completely covered with resin.

Alan