The Sharp edge....looking for reason in a fog of fad......

[oldie moldy]

I've been playing about in various retail knife web sites, looking at what they call "Hunting Knives" and "Camping Knives" and "Survival Knives". There seems to be a curious practice that has become a major developmental force in the designing of many of these blades. That of batoning wood for fire wood.

Trying to get a general idea of a given knife, I've gone to U-Tube and watched several videos that show the knife in action. Very often the knife enthusiasts will demonstrate the splitting of a sawn section of a log, basically beating the knife blade into the log section until it splits off a piece. The knives that do best at this resemble a sharp froe, with the spine of the blade very, very thick.

The underlying supposition in all this is that; there you are in the woods, trying to make a fire with only your trusty knife. Of course all the demonstrations show a section of log sawed to 8-10 inches long. Curiously enough, they never show somebody trying to "beaver" his way through that same log using only his faithful knife.
It would be a reasonable plan with an axe but not really with any functional knife. And anyway, have none of these people ever heard of "squaw wood"?

So, maybe we need to reexamine just what a knife is: a handle holding a blade designed to cut something. Who are these people who do a good bit of cutting with knives and what do their knives look like?
Butchers, wood carvers and whittlers. All their blades will do the work at hand and well, but they don't have any extra to them, they are not overbuilt. Form has followed function and then stopped. Any one of these folks being offered a "survival knife" to work with would say "You've got to be kidding".

Not really thinking about knives so much as a "Sharp Edge" that's found on a graduation of tools.
This idea starts with pen knives, pocket knives then to sheath knives then to hatchets and on up into various axes.

For me anyway, I need to decide just what I need to cut and pick a tool that will do just that and not be tempted to some "multi-use" thing.
Or a particular failing of mine; "If I got just a little bit bigger one, it could do this as well".

So, for me that means my Boy Scout pocket knife and one of my smaller axes. And that's it.

How about the fixed bladed sheath knife for bears? Well, maybe, but is that the tool I'd pick for that purpose? You know that joke about not bringing a knife to a gun fight? I think it holds for a bear fight as well.

Anyways, that's what I've been thinking....

Rob

 

[Rippy]

Rob, I agree 100% with your entire post. How ever there is that fun factor and some have fun differently than others. I'm always looking for an excuse to use a knife, but not in place of an axe.

There is a little boy inside this old man, and sometimes he's playing that he's Daniel Boone.

Also, it seems to me that the more multi function something is the less good it does at any one task.

I have the habit of over thinking things and I have been puzzled by the knife I am building in my DIY thread. While I have made knives bigger yet by a couple inches, it is too big by my standards to be practical for most things. I don't need a knife blade longer then 3 1/2"- 4" for almost all things I do and usually I go to my 3" folder first, but I'm making a 6" knife anyway. And even though I don't know why, I plan on taking it on my trips this year. It's what I feel like doing and I'm just going to go with it. Dave

 

[sweeper]

I've also have been rethink my knife, have seen the videos on batoning and all the trophy pics of batoning. I now have a fixed Case 4" thin blade.
I use a fixed blade because somewhere I read that you need one or a knife that can be opened with one hand in the event your caught in a strainer, hoping that the one free hand can get to the knife. Wearing a fixed blade on the belt is a bit hard to get to and on exiting the canoe gets caught on the strap of the canoe seat.
So I'm looking for a one hand opening knife or another place to attach my fixed blade.

 

[DuctTape]

Agreed. Made many a fire in all kinds of conditions before ever hearing of the idea of batoning. Sqaw wood, feather sticks, saw-split. All kinds of ways to get dry wood in the wettest conditions without a large knife. I suppose if one has a big knife for another purpose, then it makes sense to make use of it. But I don't see the idea of batoning as a primary or even secondary reason for that type of knife.

 

[Mihun09]

Is it not something to do with the Bear Grylls phenomenum?

 

[Odyssey]

I agree that multifunctional tools are a bit like a handyman, handy at a lot of things, but unlikely to be an expert at anything. (No offence intended to any handyman) But being handy is better than being useless. I've yet to use the tweezers on my Swiss or my multitool, but have needed the blade, Phillips, flat head and pliers (thankfully not at the same time). As for "bigger is better" reasoning, well I think each tool has it's particular uses. If I were to baton wood, I'd choose a robust blade best suited for that kind of use. I don't baton wood, but in an emergency I might need to. I don't carry my axe in my bug out bag. I do carry a knife. Unfortunately it's inadequate for baton work, so I guess I'm just gonna have to pick up smaller sticks. A small folder (quickly becoming my favourite) is ideal for small tasks it was designed and mean't for. Speaking of functions, the small folder given to me, which I lost, was a "black ops tactical folder." It was razor sharp out of the box; no need to touch it up. It had a seat belt cutter and glass breaker built into the handle. I'd hoped never to need those. The partially serrated blade was more hinderance than help, but that was likely due to my limited needs, not it's design. What I liked about this folder was the thumb pin for one handed operation. It was pretty cool being able to open with just a one hand; just a swirl of your thumb. However, I won't be replacing this knife. Just like a heavy duty knife for batonning, I wouldn't really use them much for what they're designed for. As for the fixed blades I'm interested in; mine will be suited for small general campsite tasks. My wife loves a kitchen type blade more suited for food prep that I've found. Both will be around 3 1/2" blades, not too big, not too small.
I've found a 24" axe ideal for tripping. Anything larger is just too much to carry, too much to use. If I needed anything heavier than 1 1/2 lbs, I'd trip with memaquay and his chainsaw. I'd bring the beer, he'd cut the wood. Besides, how heavy can Bud Lite be? Hatchets are smaller, lighter axes with smaller, lighter functions. If and when I trip with much smaller fires, that's what I'll choose over the axe. There will come the day when I trip without an axe and saw. I'm curious to see how well I can make do with twig fires only. No saws and axes to process with. Just picking up sticks. We'll see. I have frequently tripped without ever reaching for a knife, besides food prep. That too can be reduced or eliminated. If I'm not too careful, I may wind up like Glenn, and become blade-less. Now where would I be? No form, no function, and no fun. (Just kidding Glenn.)

ps I forgot about the bear thing. I'm considering tripping with bear spray and bangers. I have no idea how those might be multitasked. Fireworks and boot deodorizer? Nightlight and steak seasoning?

 

[Rippy]

Is it not something to do with the Bear Grylls phenomenum?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[Alan Gage]

I've used my knives to baton wood. Maybe it's not necessary and I don't do it a lot but it is nice to quickly split some small rounds when starting a fire when things are damp. I don't carry a knife specifically for that purpose, just my regular 4" fixed blade, which limits me to splitting pieces no more than 3" in diameter. Doesn't seem to be too much of a workout for the knife.

Alan

 

[madmike]

Mora clipper. $12US. try it.

 

[Rippy]

Brad, you mentioned a bug out bag. I didn't know you Canadians were worried about bugging out. If I were bugging out I would head toward your house assuming it's not in a major Ontario population area.

Is Bud lite for gram weenies? how bout that, Mem is a gram weenie after all.

 

[oldie moldy]

Ha Ha! Dave you're sure right, I'm such a hypocrite: about the fun factor. For years I've lusted for one of those real deal Viking swords! Short of a stuffed elephant, I can't think of anything I need more.
But can't you imagine: it's early light, the bow of our longship gently grates on the gravel of the Irish beach and we silently drop onto the sand. Like fog wraiths we steal into the town, burst into the church for the gold and into the town to bloody our weapons and steal all the women!! I'd do it to, just as soon as I find where I left my teeth.

I guess I'm not so much a swashbuckler but a buckled swash.

Rob

 

[Guest]

So, maybe we need to reexamine just what a knife is: a handle holding a blade designed to cut something.

Rob, an honest remembrance examination of what I have used a knife blade for while tripping in the past year or two includes many true grit survival episodes.

Cutting cheese. Opening packaging. Slicing pepperoni. Cutting tarp lines when I needed extra guys in the wind. Cutting cheese and pepperoni again.

That probably about it. I didn’t fight off any bears or baton any wood. I didn’t MacGyver an atlatl. Didn’t build a sleeping platform from palm fronds and vines.

I did use the scissors, screwdriver, pliers and other tools on the Leatherman or SA knife on occasion, but those were more for comfort issues or could-live-without-it repairs, not for survival.

 

[Rippy]

Rob, you're waking up my Norwegian stuff. My German stuff makes knives.

 

[Odyssey]

You're welcome to bug out to my place here anytime you want, and that goes for all of you canoetripping friends. But I'm not entirely sure what bugging out means, so I'll stand by my front window curtain twitching from now on. BTW, I got the idea of a BOB from Mike M. I'd never heard of them before, but was frustrated by fanny packs. I still have a large fanny pack (becoming more suitable for me as the years go by) from cross country skiing years ago, but it was awkward and uncomfortable on the portages. It was also inadequate for all my emergency supplies, such as this:


Funnily enough, my BOB is a dry bag, so it may not be entirely suitable for pointy things like knives...unless they're folders.

Oldie The Red had me following up the beach and into the town...only as far as the Inn. I'm not into plundering and pillaging, but can be easily convinced to raise a jar rather than hell, and sample the local food and entertainment. Slainte!

 

[Iskweo]

Ideas.....if your knife snags on the seat when you get up, try a cross chest or shoulder rig. It also adds to the fun factor and ups the testosterone level. Actually easier to get at too.

Batonning firewood. Really? Have none of you heard of a hatchet? If you dont want a full blown axe, then a small light hatchet is THE original multi tool (1880's version). Chopping, pounding, grinding coffee. Impromptu throwing contests. Saving your lovely sharp knife for its intended purpose.

Imagine a hatchet in one hand and a knife in the other...no bear is going to mess with you then.


Christy

 

[memaquay]

Ha, that was a good one OM! It's -29 C this morning, -39 with the wind chill, I'm sitting in front of the wood stove, making up excuses for why I shouldn't go outside today. There was a local historian who speculated that Vikings had made it as far as Lake Nipigon, a couple of viking swords were found in the bush outside of Beardmore. I'm suspicious, as most sane people experience one winter here and hightail it out of town.

Anyway, I take a lot of things on canoe trips that aren't necessary, I take them because I like them. I have never had a real use for my six inch belt knife, and my wife bought me a real nice folder for christmas, so I'm re-thinking it. I had always carried a folder before, until I read that account of the guy who stabbed a bear to death with his 6 inch Buck.

I remember on another canoe site, a guy who was a dedicated "battoner", was really angry with me for carrying an axe and chainsaw. I don't think many people understand where I live, surrounded by miles upon miles of Crown Land. Axes, chainsaws and guns are all part of local traditions, or in modern vernacular, that's how we roll.

I think a lot of the battoneering debate goes back to the incredible righteousness of lightness. There is a certain amount of smugness in some for carrying only 7.2 pounds for a three week trip. What they don't get is that there is an incredible amount of comfort in carrying a lot of gear. Afterall, it's canoeing, not backpacking. Suffer through a few ports and sit around the fire, (a good fire, with the huge pile of wood processed in a half an hour), on a nice helinox chair (not a dirt patch), sipping a beer (not the tenth cup of instant coffee for the day), and retiring to my 6 man Eureka Outfitter tent (not the latest nylon coffin sized claustrophobia machine).

 

[DuctTape]

For the incredible righteous of lightness, they eschew the larger knife as well. Some go as far as to pack just a razor blade.

In their defense, it isn't smugness as it is bringing what is needed. Not to mention, not all of us canoe trippers carry heavy loads. Depending on the trip, there is no difference between my backpacking load and canoe load (except for the boat specific items) because I am portaging a lot.

 

[ppine]

I have collected knives since I was a kid and really like the old carbon steel knives by Marbles, Western, Case, Camillus, etc. For canoeing they tend to get beat-up and I now have a ss Mora on my life vest with a plastic handle. For being around the water all the time it works fine. There is so much information about knives now many people are paralyzed and can't make a decision. Go to a store you like and pick from what they have. I like Benchmade knives when it comes to modern designs.

 

[sweeper]

Would that be the Canadian Tire folding knife and a Hatchet?

Testosterone is for those who Baton.

 

[Qayaq]

When I hear about people batoning wood, it makes me think of the Small Tool Tradition of the arctic Dorset people. Their micro blades were typically around an inch long and made of chert, quartz, etc. These tools were used for butchering animals, cutting and shaping bone, wood and ivory and cutting skins for clothing.

Makes me tend to look at using smaller blades for cutting purposes, but I'll always have my Oxhead axe for bigger work.