The Sharp edge....looking for reason in a fog of fad......

[Alan Gage]

No axes or hatchets for me when tripping. As much as I'd like to bring them, just because they're fun, I simply don't need them and, although I'm comfortable using them, worry about the injuries they can cause. So instead I just bring a knife and a small folding saw. The saw is handy for cutting big sticks/small logs and the knife can quickly split a few of them, if needed. Usually there's no need though.

Alan

 

[Iskweo]

Yepp...Canadian Tire is the outlet of choice for this woman.The reason I take an axe instead of a hatchet is simple...clearing ports. As Rob has mentioned, it the way we roll in the boreal. We took a folding saw last time too and it was a gooood thing. We ended up giving it to some rugged adventurers who seemed a bit lacking in the preparation dept.

For fires I just pick up wood off the ground or beaver lodges and snap it under foot. I tend to keep my fires small since they are not really allowed here in the summer.

Christy

 

[Odyssey]

I've been perusing on-line sites window shopping for a knife. Just like any on-line purchase, it's sometimes helpful to read the feedback posts of happy/unhappy shoppers...sometimes. Sometimes though the feedback can be less helpful and more comical.
Like the following letter here...I underlined the parts I found funny.

This knife is reliable for camp chores and even heavy duty tasks like batonning smaller logs, but it lacks the weight to be used as a "chopping" knife and isn't as tough as most carbon steel knives. I've noticed the metal flakes and chips a bit more than on other knives, which makes me think it isn't made of the strongest steel, but I've thrown it a few dozen times(it has near perfect balance, just a bit handle heavy) and it held tough. It definitely doesn't replace a hatchet or axe when camping but it is useful and for the price I doubt you could find a more sturdy and ergonomic camp knife. It also feels great in the hand, couldn't imagine it slipping.

They "couldn't imagine it slipping"...after all that log splitting, chopping and throwing!?
I think if I were unlucky enough to be sharing a camp or trip with this "bush crafter", I'd slip......away.
Far away. I'd likely leave a gift of extra gauze pads and antiseptic.
But I'd never look back.

 

[HOOP]

Batoning a knife to split out dry kindling is not a fad. There is some smugness being displayed in posts above, somewhat out of ignorance. Neither is tapping with your hand to hand split small wood to split out dry kindling for a fire. Neither is tip stabbing a the knife into a split, to twist and further split out very thin kindling pencil size or thinner. As a little boy in canoe camp over 40 years ago we were taught by our woodcraft instructors to tap our belt knives into wet wood to split out what we called "toothpicks". Its not a fad. Its also not wailing on a knife like you see in some YT videos on logs, its just tapping. If you don't know that skill, your skill set is lacking, simple as that. You are slagging a useful skill that you may need one day. For those who just pick up sticks or think you can just make feathers, I guess you have never been out in real 3 day rains, where every stick is soaked, and every bit of dead wood is soaked at least a half inch into the wood. In the Boreal most sticks of conifer trees are small diameter (black spruce, balsam fir) or big diameter and gnarled (jack pine). Not much in between.

Don't misunderstand. I do almost all my kindling prep with my axe, splitting out even down to pencil size. But if my axe handle breaks, or I lose my axe, I have my knife skills that will serve me well.

As for the people dis'ing a knife as a defensive weapon against bears, one of my colleagues was awarded medal Star of Courage by the Governor General of Canada, where he stabbed a black bear that in the process of almost killing his co-worker. He wounded the bear, held it off with a 4 inch fixed blade, and saved her life. She was heli-vac'd to the hospital where they had to staple part of her upper body back together. Since then, my outfit (government employer), has not only required bear spray training and bear spray issue for bush workers, but we are also encouraged to carry a fixed blade on our belts or outer wear (safety vests, packs, etc) for quick access for self defense against bears. This is part of Occupational Health and Safety training.

Here is the CBC link for our local hero Daniel, awarded the Star of Courage, who stabbed that bear and saved Laura's life:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunde...rage-1.2620949

I have met many bush workers who were stalked by black bears right to their trucks, and to a man now carry long fixed blades when working, as well as bear spray. These people have spent much of their careers in the bush, and have forgotten more than most people on this forum will ever know.

A lot of people don't know what they are talking about. And yes wailing with uber knives on big logs does seem to be a fad, because that is what axes were made for. But not in southeast Asia or many parts of south America where machetes and parangs have been batoning through wood for ages. Batoning with a knife is an ancient skill, and many bush knives have always been designed for this use. Like my F1 which I wrote about in another thread. It was designed to keep air force pilots alive, after they have ejected from their plane, in the bush, where they do not have an axe.

 

[memaquay]

Hoop, I don't think people are saying that battening won't work. I think some just think it is a strange thing to rely on it, when tools designed for processing firewood have been around for a long time. I'm not a fan of transferring backpacking theory into canoeing. Canoeing, is , after all, usually mostly canoeing. Adding 3.5 pounds for an axe on a one mile portage won't kill you. Perhaps using the axe improperly might, but so might choosing the wrong campsite in a wind storm, or having your grip slip on a knife handle while pounding it with a piece of wood. So the discussion is not about the value of battening in a survival situation, I'm sure most of us will do what we have to in that circumstance. On a well planned canoe trip, if one is intent on having fires for warmth or cooking, then taking the appropriate tool, like an axe and a saw, would seem to be the logical thing to do.

As always, preference often comes from experience. I have never not been able to start a fire in the boreal with my axe. My oxhead can reduce any log to splinters. The dead bottom twigs from many conifers will stay dry in most rain storms, most people will store birch bark when they find it....let's put it this way, if you can't start a fire in a rain storm with an axe, you gots some learning to do.

I have thought about moving away from carrying the big six inch Buck, the bear killer, and switching to a folder, but I'm not sure. On most of my private trips I take a gun of some sort, but it is often unavailable when portaging, and I'm not a fan of bear spray. But that is something that many canoeists can't relate to either. We live in an area with a high density of bears, and although I haven't had to bust a cap in a bear's arse yet, the day might come when it happens.

So I think people speak from their own experiences, which are situational. People who don't clear ports or only build fires once in a blue moon might want to just take a battening knife. People like me who go full on with chainsaws and the works couldn't imagine not bringing axes, files, and the whole kit. Personally, battening holds no interest for me, I like axes, but I don't mind carrying big loads either.

 

[HOOP]

Hi Memaquay,
Like I mentioned in my post, I do almost all my fire prep with my axe. I agree totally on the use of the axe and its incredible "makes sense" tool for canoe trips, especially in the north where routes are not manicured.

Re People speaking from their own experience, suggesting that batonning in total is some sort of a fad, and sort sort of dumb, illustrates they are not actually speaking from experience, but rather ignorance, because its an ancient skill for some designs of knives. Its a skill that has been around since longer than they have.

Like I also said, I have also seen some pretty silly batonning videos by people on YT, where they are suggesting that axes are dumb, and they can do everything they want with a giant knife, blah blah, and waste all kinds of energy wailing on it, splitting big logs very inefficiently. We all know time and effort could be saved with an axe that was made for that kind of work, and that is not a hardship to carry. But our friends in the tropics who do everything with big machetes and parangs might amaze many of us in how fast they can process wood with their tools, so there is always another person with a skill set and different tool who might challenge belief systems.

Under the tarp when its pouring rain and I have all my axe-made splits under the tarp, I may further process fine toothpick splits with my knife, if the wood is still kinda wet....or just for practice. I usually get the fire going with axe splits and birchbark, and don't need the really fine sticks and feathers, but I practice making them with knife anyways. That said, I have gone entire trips never using my belt knife, having used my axe for every fire.

I just took exception to the smug dismissal of a set of skills, and a group of knives designed for those skills, as if it was all stupid. Only an ignorant person would call Mors Kochanski a fool for batoning a knife. He batons Moras by the way, as well as other knives. He is a Canadian world famous bushcraft and survival instructor, specializing in the boreal forest, who also made part of his living as a contractor for the Canadian Armed Forces as a survival instructor. He has taught all over North America and Europe. There are a diverse collection of tools and skills out there.

 

[Alan Gage]

This thread has been on topic for far too long.

and I'm not a fan of bear spray.

May I ask why? Never carried it myself but planned to start.

Alan

 

[memaquay]

Alan, I have been "bear sprayed". One of the kids fired off a canister in the cafeteria. I was several hundred feet away in a different hallway. The miniscule particles that hit me smacked me in the face like Mike Tyson, my eyes began to immediately burn and I ran out the door and puked. I was completely incapacitated. Maybe other people can tolerate it better than me, but if the bear was upwind, and I sprayed it, I'm pretty sure I'd be easy pickings.

Hoop has a good story about one of his buddies who was working in the bush, and was stalked back to his vehicle by a black bear. He sprayed it directly in the face several times, and the bear continued the hunt.

There are many studies that show that bear spray is superior to any other line of direct defence. I think many people with guns often wait until they are sure the bear is going to go postal before they give it a lead headache. Around here, most people who do that don't talk about it afterwards. In other words, they don't report it, too many chances that the explanation might not be accepted. Bears are routinely shot around my little town, but the triple S policy is in effect, shoot, shovel, shut-up.

So I'm not a fan. I have never met an obstreperous bear in the bush, but I have met a few around town. I have probably seen a few hundred bears in the last 25 years, many of them on the highway while driving, probably about 20 or so on canoe trips, but most encounters around my houses. Enough to be aware, but not paranoid. I often take a gun on canoe trips, but haven't had to use it to date. The bears in the bush up here are not accustomed to humans, and they get shot often enough to remain fairly timid.

 

[Odyssey]

I didn't think I was slagging skillful use of a fixed blade HOOP. The fellow I described sounded enthusiastically careless in post #23.
My issue wasn't, nor is it with battoning. You misunderstand me. But maybe I misunderstood that guy too. Maybe he was preparing for the worst, rather than just horsing around.
If I'm ever in that horrible situation in the pissing rain needing to split logs, not sticks, and baton them, I'll be thinking of you and your post. I don't ever remember slagging off bear fights nor attacks. I doubt I'll ever need to throw my knife, but then who knows? I think I'd rather treat it with more care, and keep it with me. As for chopping, well I guess I'll find out in an emergency what all I'll need to do. Not having endured a life threatening emergency has made me feeling snug, smug and safe. More rants and reason on this site will deal with those as time goes by. Thanks HOOP for your side of this blade perspective.

 

[Odyssey]

Okay, I'm not too smug to admit it. I'm wrong. Some people do process wood for their campfires using their knives.
I stand corrected, and slowly better educated. Thanks Norton.

That's one really thick spine. Probably no coincidence that you can find brand new models of very similar design.

 

[oldie moldy]

Well Hoop, It sounds to me like you've got something caught cross-wise somewhere. You might want to go back and re-read just what I said in the beginning of all this.
Let me try it another way: when you have a knife and you cross breed it with a wedge you wind up with a tool that is heavy for a knife and not all that workable as a wedge. No matter how you cut the cake, you have a compromise. And to perform a task that normally, if you carried an axe wouldn't be needed.
If a noted outdoors man like yourself by preference uses an axe wouldn't the average Joe be best served by following your example? I do notice that you don't seem to use that parang thing.

I am curious, a fumble butt like me hasn't yet lost an axe, and only in my long ago youth did I crack a handle, how often do you loose your axes or break handles?
I blush to make a suggestion to a man like yourself but, maybe if you tie the axe down it won't get lost so easy. Perhaps you might consider one of those fibre-glass handle axes or carry a spare handle. Or maybe just carry a whole second axe.

Just for the record: I didn't call Mors a "fool" or any practice "stupid" that Hoop, was your invention.

I do feel bad for the many, who watch some survival guy on the TV and decide they too need some humungous tree splitting knife. They would be so much better served with the proper tools for the job. But a good axe isn't as sexy as a big knife and they got caught up in a fad. Probably not one in a hundred of these knives will ever get used for much of anything.

About "Dis'ing" the knife for use against bears. There is no question that the medal recipient deserved all the honors he was given. It's my experience that medals are given out when something above and beyond has been done of a heroic nature. And he sure did.

No worker ought to have to perform heroics to live through the day at work. Is a knife a tool I'd chose to defend myself against bears? Or if I was going to work daily in a situation where I might very well encounter bears would I like to have something a bunch better? Now, this may well not be all of the story, but if the employers response was to train in the use of bear spray and provide it and encourage carrying a large knife against bears, I'd have to call that a pathetically weak response.

Now battoning: it's one of many ways to split off useable sections of log. Near as I can tell, somehow you've got to cut off sections of log, probably with a saw or chain saw, then you can start in battoning. In all the U-tube things I watched, I never saw anyone using his knife to clip away at the log to cut off a section.
Now Hoop, we're splitting a log, it's not rocket science, we didn't need to go to Paris and study for six years to grasp the idea, try not to get your nickers all in a twist.

Best Wishes, Rob

 

[memaquay]

Some interesting thoughts here. Hoop, I don't want to totally sidetrack the thread, but I've been thinking about those MNR workers. Is there a policy that prevents MNR employees from carrying a firearm in remote situations? I remember a few years back I was way up the Ogoki Road and our bus broke down. A couple of local guys who worked for MNR came by. They were doing a bear survey, which consisted of nailing open sardine cans to trees and then recording the number of bear contacts. They had bear spray and bear bangers, but no gun. It is not illegal to carry a firearm for wilderness protection on Crown Land. The CO's all have sidearms.

Many people in Canada don't realize that we also have a Wilderness Carry permit that will allow us to carry a handgun in the bush if we are actively employed in a job that places us in situations where we need both hands, and a shotgun or rifle might be more of a hinderance than a benefit. Mostly prospectors and trappers get these permits. I have a few friends who actually have these, and the training is available in Thunder Bay.

Anyway, I'm just musing about things, as the frequency of negative contacts with bears seems to be on the rise, and to sum up Oldie, taking a knife to a bear fight seems to be an inadequate response. I know that when I take the school kids on trips, many parents want me to take a gun. However, I'm sure if I did, I would end up going straight to jail, so instead, we bring bear bangers and spray and chainsaws. Does MNR have policies that prevent employees from having firearms in the bush?

 

[oldie moldy]

Pondering all this and in the interest of honesty, I must cheerfully admit to "battoning" on occasion. When my blood sugar gets low and I'm a bit wobbly, I'll use a club and smack the head of my axe to split off wood. It just isn't smart to be swinging an axe head around if you're not 100%. Ditto with being cold, wet or both.

But of course the axe was made for that, whether swung by the handle or smacked with a club, it works well and takes no hurt.

It's curious, after all the talk about axes, knives, battoning or not battoning, little notice is given to the humble twig stove. I got a Littlbug Senior and although it does take some practice to learn how to feed it, the thing really does work. Although I try to get dry stuff it seems tolerant of dampish fuel.
I suppose that a twig stove is just about at the polar opposite to the faddish and sexy knives and axes. It just works, ho hum......
Wonder if those TV woodsmen ever show case a twig stove?

Best Wishes, Rob

 

[Odyssey]

I won't go down that road of "what I think is sexy". Let's just agree to disagree on that subject. The same goes for camp chores, paddle strokes, hats, and even fires. Hell, even fire making methods could divide passionate pyromaniacs. I guess I shouldn't be so critically dismissive of folks who try to emulate others as they practise a certain task. I myself do so, without the hope of ever mastering any of them. Still, the wonder and the joy is in the learning and the doing. Splitting, sawing, prying, battoning and whittling are all ways of playing and working with wood and with a purpose. I've seldom used a chainsaw, but loved using it every time. It's something I can't explain. Using a folding saw on a trip is a little less fun and a lot more work. But the satisfaction of winding up with split wood for the fire is something else that's hard to explain. It's more than "a job well done". It may be "a job well done I did myself".
As for fads, well I'll try harder to understand the u-tubers who share their wonders of self discovery. Some I judge to be admirable adventurers, others I judge to be fad followers. But then maybe I shouldn't be so quick to judge. For example, here's an idea I first considered faddish, but am now tying hard to give it a whole new rethink...survival walking staffs. I've seen them on u-tube made from PVC or metal, changeable tips, and hollow core in which to store survival doodads. These would be for hikers, not canoe trippers of course. I suppose there are all kinds of places in which to ferret away emergency items, such as back packs, fanny packs, pockets. And now walking sticks.
Of course it's not enough to carry gear, we should be practised in the use of it. Some find enjoyment in all this practise, and it becomes the focus of their outdoor enjoyment. Others find enjoyment in all this practise, but call these tasks chores, and then set these chores aside and find a different focus in their outdoor enjoyment. I'm sitting in this second camp, but eyeing the first with curiosity. Normally after I've sawn my scrounged logs, I put the saw away. After splitting, I put my axe away, and after the fire is blazing, I put my fire starting tools away too. My chores are done, I've practised/performed those tasks, and can now focus on what I've come out there for. Whatever that is. I'm rethinking all this tool lore, and maybe on a nice quiet little trip this season I'll wander over to the other camp of focused blade use, and wile away some hours with more splitting-batonning-feather stick making. I might change my focus, and find a "new me". A "new sexier me"? Nope. Now that would just be wrong.

 

[Guest]

Let's just agree to disagree

I've seldom used a chainsaw, but loved using it every time.

I have to use chainsaws from time to time, or we wouldn’t get the cars up our wooded driveway. But I hate chainsaws. I hate the noise, holding that extreme violence in hand with the potential danger of some slight miscue lopping off a body part.

Not just ill-advised cuts or kickbacks. I’ve seen a chain break and flail back with many-stitches consequence. One of my long ago housemates was a climber with a tree service. He had enough gory tales to tell of professionals effing up to give me extreme caution when using a chainsaw.

Trippers who by necessity use one to clear ports have my profound respect. I wouldn’t get near one in the backcountry.

 

[stripperguy]

... little notice is given to the humble twig stove. I got a Littlbug Senior and although it does take some practice to learn how to feed it, the thing really does work. Although I try to get dry stuff it seems tolerant of dampish fuel.
I suppose that a twig stove is just about at the polar opposite to the faddish and sexy knives and axes. It just works, ho hum......
Wonder if those TV woodsmen ever show case a twig stove?

Best Wishes, Rob

Rob,
I've been using a Kelly Kettle exclusively for close to a decade now. I get a kick out of cooking (rehydrating, really) meals with the stuff that most folks step over and ignore.
As far as the rest of this conversation, I have a severe case of ambivalence, yeah, I carry a Kershaw every day, and bring a leatherman when tripping, but who cares what I do?? But I do have a nice sheath knife that I keep carefully stored at the bottom of Stillwater Reservoir (since 1982!).

 

[Philtrum]

The bears in the bush up here are not accustomed to humans, and they get shot often enough to remain fairly timid.

Do you think bears learn to stay away from humans because other bears get shot?
I'd say they "remain fairly timid" because black bears are naturally ... fairly timid.
Why do I think that? Because I've been following the work of Lynn Rogers and the North American Bear Center for several years.
http://www.bear.org/website/

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'm not exactly sure what the topic is. But I think I know some of the main reasons why people buy fixed blade knives of medium length.

The first two reasons don't really apply to canoe tripping, but they probably account for a substantial number of the sales of medium length fixed blade knives.

First, knives are very collectible. Some people own hundreds. They don't use them. Just collect them.

Second, some people are what I might call "bushcraft hobbyists." They don't really ever go out into the wilderness. But they like to play with some of the toys and become proficient with those toys in their backyards and garages. It's like the 45 year old, out-of shape-guy who likes basketball but really can't play. Yet he likes to buy expensive Nike basketball shoes and a leather City Rock so he can shoot hoops twice a month in his driveway. Like him, the bushcraft hobbyist enjoys acquiring and practicing with some of the toys of the trade.

As for people who actually do go into the woods and need edged tools, the reason why most would want a medium length fixed blade--aside from hunting and fishing--is simple. The primary reason is to process wood to make fires. Secondary reasons relate to survival situations.

So, if you want the ability to process fire wood, you need the right tools. Wood needs to be cut, split, shaved or carved. Okay, the question then is: What tools do I need to do those jobs?

There seems to be a suggestion that the answer is: bring an axe or a hatchet. But that answer ignores the obvious: Many serious people who go into the woods don't want to bring an axe. Such people are legion, including:

-- The millions of backpackers and hikers who are concerned about minimizing weight.

-- The tens of thousands of paddlers who have the same philosophy about weight, especially those paddlers who portage.

-- The millions of people who are unfamiliar with axes, realize they don't have the skills, and aren't interested in learning -- often because they are city or suburban folks who have no need for an axe at home.

-- The many people who are afraid of axes.

So, what wood processing tools should such axe-less hikers, backpackers, hunters, fishermen and paddlers bring with them? A very common answer from all parts of the globe is to bring a three piece toolkit for wood processing:

1. A saw to take down dead trees or cut up downed logs of up to 6". There are many choices here. Those concerned about weight will usually choose a collapsible bow saw or a quality folding saw. Nothing else is needed.

2. A medium length fixed blade knife to do some batoning, splitting, shaving, feather-sticking and carving when necessary. One can give fancy names like "survival knives" or "bushcraft knives" to these tools, but that's irrelevant. It makes sense that such a knife should have the proper length and structure to do those wood cutting tasks. There are hundreds knife choices in this category.

3. A good backup for the primary knife. "Two is one. One is none." This could be second fixed blade knife or a quality folding knife.

That's it. If you have the skills, which don't seem like rocket science, you can process wood adequately on a trip into the woods. Sounds simple to me.

And that's that's the reason I want a fixed blade knife. I have never owned and have little experience with an axe, and would probably not want to carry it even if I did. Yet, I do want to make fires more often than I do, especially when I'm in places were there isn't gatherable wood. I have tools #1 and #3 but I don't have any #2's.

While not the primary reason for getting a medium length fixed blade knife, that tool might help in an attack by a bear or a psycho. More commonly, a fixed blade knife may be wanted by a hunter to dress game or a fisherman to prepare fish. In those cases, it makes sense to select a hunting and/or fishing blade as the backup knife or knives.

 

[memaquay]

Well Philtrum, I don't want to take this thread too sideways, but......I have read much of the literature, and agree with it, usually. However, as well as reading, I also live with bears. Most of the black bears are timid, until they aren't. Then they might try to eat you. There have been quite a few cases in Northern Ontario in the last few years of predatory black bears. A few of these have been fended off with knives. Bears who live around parks think that humans with long pointy things in their hands are holding sticks with hotdogs on them. Bears up here know that humans with long pointy things have guns. Bears have frequent exchanges with people in the north, they are always coming into town and raiding the place, they're living the thug life. Then they get shot. Starting on Aug 15 of every year, thousands of bear hunters invade the bush around my place. They shoot bears.

I used to hunt crows when I lived on the farm. If you hung a few dead ones upside down in the garden, they would generally stay out of it. Those crows were crafty, they knew when I had a gun and when I didn't. Them critters is smarter than we thinks!

 

[HOOP]

For those who still, after all of the above discussion, do not understand that (a) knife batoning to split wood is an ancient skill as old as the knife itself, and (b) its easy, have a look at this new video of a woman batoning fine splits for her brand new woodstove first burn-in. She does a very fine job with what looks like a Mora. Efficient, competent, practical. The batoning footage starts at time 1:26. She speeds up the video which shows you how the process flows.

The Mora knives are not designed as hard-use survival knives because they can break, but they can be used for light batoning with no problem. Watch her body language, she's being efficient. I still prefer my axe, but if I don't have my axe, I will be doing what she does with my knives (F1, ESEE), that were in fact designed and chosen to do this type of work. I have light batoned my Moras many times and its fine. In fact Moras are so thin they often go through softwood like hot knife through butter (almost ).

Carry on.