Any thoughts on white ash vs. cherry for gunnels? I am aiming to keep them fairly low-profile.
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Yet another JW Kite
- Thread starter BlackRock
- Start date
Depending on what you plan for the decks, either would likely work well for your gunnels. Colour wise they will both provide sufficient contrast with your hull, ash will take on a golden yellow hue after a bit, cherry will continue to darken for a few years and end up a much richer darker colour.
If your cedar is a darker colour when you wet out a small portion of the hull, cherry will likely blend better (low key)
Brian
If your cedar is a darker colour when you wet out a small portion of the hull, cherry will likely blend better (low key)
Brian
Cruiser (Et al), I am hoping to do the arrow pattern (for lack of better description on my part), similar to your Freedom Solo 16'. As it stands, I plan to wedge the deck between the inwales, rather than on top. Gunnels will be relatively thin, uncapped, but generously sealed with epoxy. I was tentatively planning to do ash gunnels, and have the arrow pattern consist of walnut, ash, and cherry. If I do cherry gunnels, I will probably keep the pattern to just walnut and cherry, to keep things from getting unnecessarily busy. Being that the prices are very similar, if I can find a quality piece in a good length, Cherry seems to be a nice alternative, and may be a bit easier to work.
I am also hoping to do vertical bulkheads at either end, for secondary flotation and to hide some of the aesthetic flaws at the stems. The bulkheads will be made of flat glassed cedar strips, similar to what SG does, except I hope to have the bulkhead meet the deck a few inches back from the desk's edge. Haven't pondered through the drainage factor much yet.
I am also hoping to do vertical bulkheads at either end, for secondary flotation and to hide some of the aesthetic flaws at the stems. The bulkheads will be made of flat glassed cedar strips, similar to what SG does, except I hope to have the bulkhead meet the deck a few inches back from the desk's edge. Haven't pondered through the drainage factor much yet.
Yes, something very similar, fitting-wise, Jim. I also asked for Cruiser's permission to imitate his method of laminating strips for the deck, though, like his Freedom Solo 16'. There are some great photos of said decks on his build thread: http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/forum/paddlecraft-construction/73582-freedom-solo-16/page5.
Mr Rock,
Are you meaning that the deck would overhang the bulkhead?
Many years ago, I had built a stripped guideboat, with stripped decks and no bulkheads. I had to add some reinforcement to the decks since everyone's inclination was to lift the boat by the somewhat fragile stripped deck. I eventually made a hidden thwart/hand hold that fit just under the deck. That particular configuration did trap water, though.
Decks with bulkheads are a whole nuther thing, plenty of mutually beneficial strengthening from joining both together.
I love the look of Cruiser's decks, but not the thickness! IMHO, they should be 3/16" thick and glassed on both sides.
I suppose that's half the reason that we all build our own boats...to our own preferences!!
Are you meaning that the deck would overhang the bulkhead?
Many years ago, I had built a stripped guideboat, with stripped decks and no bulkheads. I had to add some reinforcement to the decks since everyone's inclination was to lift the boat by the somewhat fragile stripped deck. I eventually made a hidden thwart/hand hold that fit just under the deck. That particular configuration did trap water, though.
Decks with bulkheads are a whole nuther thing, plenty of mutually beneficial strengthening from joining both together.
I love the look of Cruiser's decks, but not the thickness! IMHO, they should be 3/16" thick and glassed on both sides.
I suppose that's half the reason that we all build our own boats...to our own preferences!!
Rock ... I would keep the ash in the deck mix, regardless of how you do the rest .... the 3 colour just had a better look to me, I would at least play with strip to see what it will look like, then do whatever tickles your fancy. A point, about "permission", I post to share ( as does most folks here) if you see something you like, use it, that is a high form of flattery IMO.
SG ... those decks on the Freedom are less than 1/2", are FG'd on both sides and weight less than 3 oz for both ..... they are all cedar and left thickness, simply for the cap round , it gave the look and there was no practical weight penalty. I don't think 3/16" would have looked right, if this was the hammock forum I would say HYOH (Hang Your Own Hang) ... but we don't have anything like that here.
Brian
SG ... those decks on the Freedom are less than 1/2", are FG'd on both sides and weight less than 3 oz for both ..... they are all cedar and left thickness, simply for the cap round , it gave the look and there was no practical weight penalty. I don't think 3/16" would have looked right, if this was the hammock forum I would say HYOH (Hang Your Own Hang) ... but we don't have anything like that here.
Brian
Brian,
As I saw in your other post, just making alternative suggestions, We all have different wants and needs.
A couple of my boat building (and tripping) buddies always uses spacer block gunnels, they're beautiful. But I have no need for them.
I almost always use decks and bulkheads (for strength, hiding sins, flotation) the decks make very convenient platforms for loading/launching/beaver dam scrambling, etc.
What Mr.Rock, and each of us, has to decide is this:
Which of these collective features/methods best suit our wants, needs, and skill sets. Or maybe our preferences and offerings trigger some idea for others to try something entirely different.
I know for sure that I would have never attempted a full composite build without the guys here breaking the ground first!
Meanwhile, Mr. Rock, I hope you're enjoying the varied inputs and shared experiences, and I'm sure you're enjoying your build. And on the off chance that your Kite doesn't perform the way you imagined...well, just tweak the design and do it all over again. It only gets better each time around!
As I saw in your other post, just making alternative suggestions, We all have different wants and needs.
A couple of my boat building (and tripping) buddies always uses spacer block gunnels, they're beautiful. But I have no need for them.
I almost always use decks and bulkheads (for strength, hiding sins, flotation) the decks make very convenient platforms for loading/launching/beaver dam scrambling, etc.
What Mr.Rock, and each of us, has to decide is this:
Which of these collective features/methods best suit our wants, needs, and skill sets. Or maybe our preferences and offerings trigger some idea for others to try something entirely different.
I know for sure that I would have never attempted a full composite build without the guys here breaking the ground first!
Meanwhile, Mr. Rock, I hope you're enjoying the varied inputs and shared experiences, and I'm sure you're enjoying your build. And on the off chance that your Kite doesn't perform the way you imagined...well, just tweak the design and do it all over again. It only gets better each time around!
I decided on Ash for the gunnels. I don't really have a solid reason, other than cost and, perhaps, curiosity. I picked up a 1"x5"x10' ash board yesterday, and ripped it into two 2.25" boards, which, after cutting off some scars, will give me a 16 footer. Just what I need for the gunnels. Tonight I cut the scarf and took care of some fillet sanding inside the knuckle on the boat. I was a bit daunted by the cut, and decided to break some rules, stick with what I know, and cut it with my cordless circular saw. The cuts turned out very well, and after a bit of hand planing, I have a clean and square joint, and the boards make one nice straight 16 footer. The inwales and outwales will be cut to 3/8" thickness. I will also incorporate the ash into the decks.
My 6oz. glass finally arrived today. I plan to do a seal coat tomorrow after work. At which point, I will also glue my scarf and glass what will make the vertices for the bulkheads. Saturday morning I will glass the inside of the hull - both layers together at once. I am leaning towards a single fill coat, but an still unsure. Part of my reasoning has to do with varnishing. When it comes time to varnish the inside, will sanding the un-fill-coated glass damage it?
SG, my intention was to overhang the deck slightly, but to reinforce the leading edge with a thicker section of cherry or ash. The deck will end up being apx. 3/8" thick, and it is all hard woods. So it will be somewhat stout on its own. However, with gear, I'd prefer reinforcement. That said, I am considering abandoning the overhand, and doing something similar to your bulkhead/deck style, yet with the different deck.
SG et al, I am surely enjoying the varied inputs! This forum is a veritable university of building and tripping information, and I am very muy grateful to you, my professors! I look forward to getting this one in the water, many more trips and builds, and then getting to share what I learn along the way!
I will post some pictures when there is something interesting to share. Everything is mid-process at the moment - nothing too exciting to look at.
My 6oz. glass finally arrived today. I plan to do a seal coat tomorrow after work. At which point, I will also glue my scarf and glass what will make the vertices for the bulkheads. Saturday morning I will glass the inside of the hull - both layers together at once. I am leaning towards a single fill coat, but an still unsure. Part of my reasoning has to do with varnishing. When it comes time to varnish the inside, will sanding the un-fill-coated glass damage it?
SG, my intention was to overhang the deck slightly, but to reinforce the leading edge with a thicker section of cherry or ash. The deck will end up being apx. 3/8" thick, and it is all hard woods. So it will be somewhat stout on its own. However, with gear, I'd prefer reinforcement. That said, I am considering abandoning the overhand, and doing something similar to your bulkhead/deck style, yet with the different deck.
SG et al, I am surely enjoying the varied inputs! This forum is a veritable university of building and tripping information, and I am very muy grateful to you, my professors! I look forward to getting this one in the water, many more trips and builds, and then getting to share what I learn along the way!
I will post some pictures when there is something interesting to share. Everything is mid-process at the moment - nothing too exciting to look at.
My apologies for the long delay in updates. I am nearing the finish line on the Kite. I was actually able to launch it on Christmas, with thwarts clamped in place. I didn't have much room to paddle because of the ice, but it was quite pleasant. It also gave me a chance to figure out where to mount the seat. I used the water on the floor trick.
Since I last posted (6 months ago), I have:
- sanded and glassed the inside (full layer of 6oz. half layer of 4ox.); stems - what a pain.
- cut and added ss bulk heads, glassed on both sides.
- mounted decks - ash, cherry, and black walnut.
- added gunnels, ash with scuppers
- more sanding
- built the seat frame
- added thwarts, ash, yet to be drilled and bolted
Here is the current status:
I need still need to:
- Finish shaping and sanding the gunnels, thwarts, and seat.
- Epoxy the decks
- varnish everything
- web the seat
- mount the seat and thwarts
- whatever else I am forgetting
I am wondering if anyone has any advice on varnishing. My local options are severely limited. Is it a bad idea to use either Minwax or Varathane Spar Urethane? I tried to find a modestly priced spar varnish option, but haven't seen much. Other local options include Man O 'War Spar Varnish, Dalys Seafin SuperSpar, or Interlux Schooner Gold. I am fairly clueless when it comes to varnishing, so any advice on product and process is very appreciated.
Since I last posted (6 months ago), I have:
- sanded and glassed the inside (full layer of 6oz. half layer of 4ox.); stems - what a pain.
- cut and added ss bulk heads, glassed on both sides.
- mounted decks - ash, cherry, and black walnut.
- added gunnels, ash with scuppers
- more sanding
- built the seat frame
- added thwarts, ash, yet to be drilled and bolted
Here is the current status:
I need still need to:
- Finish shaping and sanding the gunnels, thwarts, and seat.
- Epoxy the decks
- varnish everything
- web the seat
- mount the seat and thwarts
- whatever else I am forgetting
I am wondering if anyone has any advice on varnishing. My local options are severely limited. Is it a bad idea to use either Minwax or Varathane Spar Urethane? I tried to find a modestly priced spar varnish option, but haven't seen much. Other local options include Man O 'War Spar Varnish, Dalys Seafin SuperSpar, or Interlux Schooner Gold. I am fairly clueless when it comes to varnishing, so any advice on product and process is very appreciated.
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I've used Epiphanes, Helmsman and Varathane, Spar Urethanes. The later two are the least expensive. All in gloss. Helmsman's might hold a slight edge over Varathane.
I like my Thwart in a Solo, in front of me. Nice to attach camera, bags, fishing pole, and rest a spare paddle in front of me, making things handy ! It also helps this Old Codger. exit the canoe.
Hull looks Nice ! Good to see you added chambers, the trim is sweet. Oh when you install the seat , if not contoured, drop the from edge 1/2"- 3/4" , lower than the back. I like the front edge about 4" below the bottom edge on the inwhale. Remember it's easier to raise a seat than lowering it, in which case you would have to cut New hanger brackets !
And Yes, Stems are a Pain ! Stemless is all I build,
Jim
I like my Thwart in a Solo, in front of me. Nice to attach camera, bags, fishing pole, and rest a spare paddle in front of me, making things handy ! It also helps this Old Codger. exit the canoe.
Hull looks Nice ! Good to see you added chambers, the trim is sweet. Oh when you install the seat , if not contoured, drop the from edge 1/2"- 3/4" , lower than the back. I like the front edge about 4" below the bottom edge on the inwhale. Remember it's easier to raise a seat than lowering it, in which case you would have to cut New hanger brackets !
And Yes, Stems are a Pain ! Stemless is all I build,
Jim
Thank you much for the guidance, Jim. I think I will try Helmsman Spar Urethane. Do you generally apply with a bristle or foam brush, or both?
It's hard to tell in the photos, but I will have two thwarts, one a couple feet in front of the seat, and one directly behind the seat. Thanks for the advice on the seat, too!
It's hard to tell in the photos, but I will have two thwarts, one a couple feet in front of the seat, and one directly behind the seat. Thanks for the advice on the seat, too!
I have used Epiphanes and varathane professional, but Epiphanes is hands down the best I have used .... don't forget that whatever you pick can be shipped and US shipping is usually pretty cheap. Whatever you buy, just make sure you check that it has maximum UV blockers .... that's what you want on the canoe and that is one of the reasons the premium varnishes cost more.
Regardless of what you finally end up with, you will need to get it on the boat and that opens a can of worms as far as opinions on application go ... so read what ever gets posted, try what makes sense to you.
When the premium varnishes go on, they start to skin pretty quick, so you need to plan out the application ( I will assume Epiphanes, you may have to adjust a bit for other ones). Epiphanes is pretty thick and I always use at least 10% thinners .... the application recommendations for thinning are 50%, 25%, 15% for the first 3 coats (in that order, and this works).
I use a roller to get the varnish coat on evenly and quickly, on about a 2' section, then tip the section with a 3" foam brush (use a JEN brush). Move over to the opposite side and repeat, keep hopping back and forth till you get done.
Don't try to get a thick coat, get it even, get just enough on, get it tipped off and move on .... repeat side to side till you get to the end. The best thing about this is that you get 2 practices runs before the final, that is, since you are sanding between coats anyway, you have 2 coats to get your application technique down (assuming you use 3 coats). If you fudge the 3rd coat, just do another sanding and put on a 4th, it isn't the end of the world.
For the inside, I do 2 coats of high gloss, and then use a matte coat to finish it off.
Brian
ps: nice job on the decks
Regardless of what you finally end up with, you will need to get it on the boat and that opens a can of worms as far as opinions on application go ... so read what ever gets posted, try what makes sense to you.
When the premium varnishes go on, they start to skin pretty quick, so you need to plan out the application ( I will assume Epiphanes, you may have to adjust a bit for other ones). Epiphanes is pretty thick and I always use at least 10% thinners .... the application recommendations for thinning are 50%, 25%, 15% for the first 3 coats (in that order, and this works).
I use a roller to get the varnish coat on evenly and quickly, on about a 2' section, then tip the section with a 3" foam brush (use a JEN brush). Move over to the opposite side and repeat, keep hopping back and forth till you get done.
Don't try to get a thick coat, get it even, get just enough on, get it tipped off and move on .... repeat side to side till you get to the end. The best thing about this is that you get 2 practices runs before the final, that is, since you are sanding between coats anyway, you have 2 coats to get your application technique down (assuming you use 3 coats). If you fudge the 3rd coat, just do another sanding and put on a 4th, it isn't the end of the world.
For the inside, I do 2 coats of high gloss, and then use a matte coat to finish it off.
Brian
ps: nice job on the decks
I use a foam brush ! Nick Schade, of Guillemot Kayaks has the best technique, I've found. Check out his Youtube videos. Excellent !
Cruiser has good advise also !
Thanks for clarifying the thwarts !
Jim
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Over the last couple weeks, I wrapped up varnishing and put the seat together. Our landlord is selling the place, so its been a bit of a mad dash to get the Kite complete. Today was launch day, and it was superb. I paddled a few miles in mixed conditions; it was a delight. I will add more later. 
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Nice job
Beauty! Love the contours of the outer stem!
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