Where else can we go?

[Glenn MacGrady]

If we cancel now, we get a 50% refund. We did purchase travel insurance, but did not pay the extra $300 for cancel for ANY REASON. I don't believe the pandemic or border closings qualify in the list of reason we will get a refund for the trip via insurance.

If you are legally unable to take the trip because of the pandemic, you arguably are not cancelling your contract with the outfitter. Rather, you are prevented from performing the contract because of what's known as "act of god" or "force majeure". Good contracts typically have a force majeure clause for rare and unforeseeable events.

You may want to determine whether your contracts with the outfitter and the insurance company have force majeure clauses that allow you to get your money back. Of course, even if you do have that contractual right, that doesn't mean the outfitter or insurance company will actually pony up. If they can't pay (destitute small outfitter) or refuse to pay (typical insurance company tactic), you are left with a right to sue, which won't be worth the legal cost and hassle. But such a contractual right may give you some additional moralsuasion leverage in a renegotiation.

 

[Erica]

Well bad news. The outfitter is not going to refund any of our deposit which was $900 Canadian. I think he is a small outfit and doesn't have the funds. He changed the amount he is going to refund from 50% to 25% arbitrarily without notifying me. I don't think there is anything I can do about it. Just move on.

Travel insurance does not open until Monday.

We are having fun with the book of Alaskan rivers. But today I am feeling like I may as well give up on this summer. I hate to do that because I don't know how many summers I have left in me. But...others have it a lot worse in this time of pandemic and I am grateful for what I have.

 

[dramey]

Erica, you could do the Yukon River from Eagle, AK to either Circle, AK or the Dalton Highway. Wild, remote, and still car accessible at the put in and take out points.

 

[yellowcanoe]

The Noatak is a great river. Friends of mine took their time and spent three weeks on it. Logistics are sort of challenging.. They mailed all their gear to Bettles about three months ahead of the trip. Way cheaper than trying to lug it on a plane with changes.. Could not afford lost gear. They also had their own PakCanoe so it also was mailed in its bag.
I note several operators run shorter trips for novices that I think would bore you and they are quite expensive.

 

[Erica]

Thank you dramey and yellowcanoe - and everyone else who contributed.

We have decided to not go to the Yukon or Alaska this year. There is too much uncertainty with the CV19 restrictions. Instead, we will try to plan an autumn trip to the SW, most likely the Buffalo. We have never seen western rivers so it should be interesting from that standpoint.

PaddlingPit: Getting to the Noatak is extremely expensive. Flights from Bettel or Coldfoot is about $5000.00. Then you also have to fly from Fairbanks to Bettel or Coldfoot. We would probably want to ship our gear ahead of time, as yellowcanoe suggested. We were planning to ship our gear up to Whitehorse for the Liard, but obviously we held off on that.

Another interesting thing about northern Alaska is that many outfitters are converting everything to inflatables. A "canoe" is understood to be an inflatable and you have to say you want a "hard" canoe and many of the outfitters don't even carry them anymore. I paddled an inflatable canoe on the Upper Hudson and it was great to be able to handle the much higher water and class of rapids. Self-bailing. But I wouldn't want to paddle a river in one.

We will look at Alaska for next year. The Noatak sounds particularly beautiful, starting in the Brooks Range and moving through several arctic ecosystems. If we could get the time, you can spend more time and do all several hundred miles. I'l love to do that. If one were going to spend 4-6 weeks out there, the charter air might be more worth it.

We are also looking into purchasing one or more of the pakboats before heading to Alaska or Northern Canada. I didn't want one for my own solo trips, because I don't trust myself to be able to do the assembly required. But if Brad is also, he's pretty handy at these things.

Thank you all,
Erica

 

[yellowcanoe]

Erica if you want to do the Buffalo try to avoid starting on a weekend. There are what we call "river dorks". Floaters who are partiers. Usually for the weekend and some do not camp. There is alot of road access.

That said we generally had an Ozark Rendezvous among a group of genuinely skilled paddlers starting around October 18 when the crazies had stopped venturing forth. The Ozark rendezvousers were generally of the early to rise get paddling and early to bed type. Good campfires with good conversation.

I agree with spending time on the Noatak.. 4-6 weeks allows time to enjoy the full benefit of the area.

Exit at Kotzebue. Consider flying right to there for the start too.. The logistics could be cheaper. I don't know

https://www.alaska.org/detail/noatak-river

You could try contacting Joel Hollis joelmhollis@verizon.net He and his wife did the Noatak and spend every summer doing an Alaskan River. He has a great wealth of logistics re Alaska trips. He and his wife do trips the cheapest possible and he was the one that advised using USPS as it is domestic and never subject to any other fees.

 

[Mason]

We would probably want to ship our gear ahead of time, as yellowcanoe suggested. We were planning to ship our gear up to Whitehorse for the Liard, but obviously we held off on that.Erica

I'd definitely look into excess baggage charges with the various airlines before committing to shipping. For my 7 week trip in Nunavut, we all flew commercial to the put in (Wollaston Lake, SK), and commercial from the takeout (Arviat NU). Personally, I had 150 pounds of personal gear including food (100#). So that was three bags for me. The Pakboats were an additional 4 bags (2 boats x 2 bags below 50 pounds) and the rifle was one additional, divided among the four of us. So basically, that's four bags per person +1. Depending on the airline, (Alaska has great excess baggage rates, and Delta sucks), it might be worth flying with everything. We shipped small packages of bear spray and empty fuel bottles, and the shipping and customs was expensive, and very iffy. I shipped via UPS about three weeks before the trip, and I got it the day we shoved off at Wollaston (UPS told me less than a week). One fellow never got his stuff.

Something to think about.

 

[Guest]

Driving to the Buffalo River in Arkansas would take 34 hours. We don't have that kind of time to take off a week before and after the trip.

Erica, IIRC you are somewhere in Florida. 34 hours drive time to the Buffalo? Even Key West to Jasper should be more like 22 hours, unless you are adding in a motel stay after 12 hours on the road.

Random thoughts on long distance trips. When travelling long distances having a vehicle that accommodates shift drivers, one at the wheel for a tank of gas, one asleep, is a huge boon. Driven straight through, Baltimore MD to Moab UT, is 2000 miles and less than 30 hours drive time. Call it 33 hours tops, with stops for gas and diner food and rest area bladder needs and etc.

I have never stopped anywhere east of the Mississippi when heading west. Or when heading back east. Once out where there is more “elbow room” things get more interesting. With time for an overnighter or two along the way there is some little-known awesome stuff out there. For example:

Palo Duro Canyon. Second largest canyon in the US. That no one outside of Texas has ever heard about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Duro_Canyon

The Moki Dugway/Muley Point. Muley Point may be the single most stunning scenic vista in the US (free primitive camping on the Muley Point escarpment too)
https://bluffutah.org/moki-dugway-muley-point/

Special places galore, from lesser known Nat’l Parks to State Parks to Nat’l Forests and Nat’l Monuments

Guadalupe Mountains National Park. MacKitrick (sp?) canyon is special. The view from the escarpment at the top of the Permian Reef trail even more so.
https://www.nps.gov/gumo/index.htm

Valley of Fire State Park. Rock weirdness.
http://parks.nv.gov/parks/valley-of-fire

Nat’l Forest Service campgrounds high in the Manti La Salles. An hour away from the baking desert of Arches NP, suddenly WTF snow fields, alpine lakes and aspens.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/mantilasal

Chiricahua National Monument. More rock weirdness. Cave Creek at the foot of the mountains near Portal is a peculiar birder’s paradise. Trogons, and more specie of hummingbird than you can count.
https://www.nps.gov/chir/index.htm


White Sands Nat’l Park. So weird, so worth a brief drive through stop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sands_National_Park

Hell, there is even some cool stuff in Kansas. So, so many awesome, unique and wonder-filled places.

Of the US paddling venues mentioned I agree with YC, avoid summer weekends on the Buffalo. We did a long summer family trip there with friends; Monday-Friday was fine, Sat/Sun was a zoo. Actually things started to get busy on Friday.

Likewise I would not recommend the Green River in Utah in summer. I have never been on the Green in fall, maybe someday, although one low-water spring trip offered plenty of sandbar camping, which is its own oft-windy, no shade challenge; on the whole I’d rather be tucked in back up a side canyon.

But, in late April/early May, the 100 mile stretch of the Green in Utah, from Ruby Ranch to the confluence with the Colorado, should be every paddler’s birthright. Even if it means catching a cheap flight to Denver, renting a car, driving 6 hours to Moab and renting a boat from one of the outfitters.

With airfare, car rental, boat rental and jet-boat shuttle back up the Colorado, the Green would not be cheap done that way. Still way less than an Alaska trip. You could easily paddle/float the entire hundred miles in four-five days, but you would regret that time constraint.

I’d plan a week to 10 days minimum. Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons are not places to rush through. Take a layover day or two at some incredible side canyon site and just sit, watch and listen. Or hike trails only accessible from the river if that action appeals.

Yeah, I’d rather have my own boat on every trip, and usually have. But between the Anasazi ruins and granaries, petroglyphs and side canyon camping on the Green you will soon forget you are floating downriver in a Grumman or Disco. The outfitters do have some better boats, including kayaks and maybe even solo canoes.

Seriously, the first trip down the Green will blow your mind. And you will want to come back, and linger longer.

Apologies for the lengthy blather; I have a 45 year love affair with road tripping across the US.

And apologies for the teeny font size; something recently happened on my end and no matter what font and size I select that’s what gets posted. Do my posts at least look less fat in this font?

 

[Black_Fly]

Sorry to hear about your bad fortune. Is there no outfitters association and licensing board you can appeal to regarding the refund?

I now have a new name for the "pilgrims" we encounter on the river - "river dorks" fits better (although decidedly meaner).

 

[yellowcanoe]

We have Death Valley in our travel plans.. Actually we were just going to leave about three days after everything shut down. Needless to say that trip did not happen.
We are going to bring our woiolies as Tex's RIverways will run jet boats and shuttles until Nov 21. and do the Green again in another of its moods. We can then proceed to the parks around Las Vegas( some stunning state parks never mind the Strip). and Death Valley.
No interest in the Green or Death Valley in August!

The plus to renting a canoe is that you really don't notice what you are paddling as you are too busy looking around. And isn't it great to give a mud crusted boat back to the outfitter? Though they like the inside tidy so it does not rain down mud on the people during the jet boat ride back.

Combine the Green with a Missour Breaks trip in the autumn. oops forgot you have a schedule.

 

[Erica]

What a wealth of information! You all are terrific.

I am starting to think the outfitter is an unscrupulous individual. I thought he was with Yukon Wild, as that is his email address, but apparently he isn't. I had emailed him just to ask for his suggestions, and he wrote back confirming my cancellation and I had not canceled. So I wonder if he has insurance against people who cancel on him. He was very forceful about having received my cancellation. I realize he probably had already spent the money, but it still didn't taste right to me. As I look back there were others things that were twinges of something being not quite right. I probably should rely on that more.

Brad is the one with the actual job that requires you save up PTO days and schedule your vacations. So joint trips are more difficult to scheduel than me going solo. I work, but it is my own company, which means I get to make the rules.

Mike, you are right. I was completely wrong about the 34 hours to the Buffalo. Just an stray neuron firing at the wrong time. Brad says it is 18 hours to the Buffalo. And I don't mind all the information. It has been many decades since I have been out west, except for a quickie out to see the solar eclipse in Wyoming.

Thanks so much again
Erica

 

[pblanc]

When exactly were you or are you planning your trip, Erica?

 

[Erica]

We were going to leave Florida on July 17 and be on the water July 20. Off the water on August 4.

I really didn't cancel the outfitter. I just sent an email asking about what he thought about the restrictions and what the cost of cancellation was and he wrote back and just said "I accept your cancellation." It just didn't feel right.

Now we are looking at the Buffalo in October. We can drive cheaper than flying and the shuttles are way cheaper and we can bring our own canoes.

 

[pblanc]

Advance trip planning for the Buffalo River is always at least a little tricky because its flow is very much dependent on rainfall. It is always possible that some stretches of the river will be either too high or too low. It is a pretty safe bet that in October the lower Buffalo will have decent flow and quite possibly a good stretch of the middle Buffalo. Temperatures that time of year are usually quite pleasant with highs in the mid 70s and lows still well above freezing, water temperature around 60 degrees Fahrenheit.

Where you can best put in will depend on what daily mileage you care to do but water levels may well dictate how high up on the watershed make it practical to put on. I am going to list several links that might be helpful in determining where best to put on the river.

The Buffalo Outdoor Center is a popular outfitter on the upper Buffalo that primarily runs day trips on that stretch of the river. But they could likely provide some information and advice regarding trips on the middle or lower Buffalo. This webpage from BOC provides quick visual information on water levels at the various USGS gauges on the River from upstream to down stream. In your case the first gauge of interest will probably be the one at Pruitt (Pruitt Landing) which is located just below the Ozark access. The gauge identified as "Harriet" is located at the Dillard's Ferry access at the Highway 14 bridge crossing:

https://www.buffaloriver.com/pages/floating/current-buffalo-river-level/

Here is a web page from the National Park Service that provides much the same information but shows where along the river the various gauges are located:

https://ar.water.usgs.gov/buffaloriver/

You can also access real time information from the individual USGS gauges. Most of them provide water level information in both stage (feet) and flow (cubic feet per second) although the Carver gauge gives stage level only. This web page conveniently shows the real time information for the stage levels of all of the gauges simultaneously along with some advice as to what those stages mean:

http://buffalorivergeoscience.org/flow

You can also access the individual USGS gauges individually to get the flow information in cfs by plugging the gauge ID for each of those gauges into google. For example, if you run a search for "USGS Buffalo River at Pruitt, AR" the first entry in the search list will lead you to this page:

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/uv?07055680

 

[Swampdrummer]

Sure do appreciate all the advice here folks! This is Brad, The "other" half of this crew! pblanc. Thanks for the links for the Buffalo information. I'd already found a couple of those but not all. I think our plan will be to try to make reservations with one of the outfitters up there for whatever dates will work but try to put on the river on a Monday, as far upstream as water levels allow, then we'll just decide how many days we want to spend on the river. I don't have to make miles to have a good trip. If we spend 10 days in the lower 35 miles, I'm good with that! I understand the smallmouth fishing is outstanding! Thanks again all.
Brad

 

[pblanc]

If you are looking for something relatively remote, the lower 31-32 miles through the lower Buffalo River Wilderness is most likely to deliver. I have not yet done that stretch, but I know it to be a favorite of many long time Buffalo paddlers looking for a bit of solitude. Below the Buffalo Point Ranger station, there is only one more access point (Rush Landing) before you reach the confluence of the Buffalo with the White River at Buffalo Point, and that is a bit off the beaten path.

Most years even during the lower water months, a put it at either Grinder's Ferry or Gilbert is doable. In October the odds are relatively good of being able to put on above Grinders but it is not a given. River mileage from Gilbert to Buffalo Point is 54.5 miles. A put-in at Grinder's Ferry would add another 4.2 miles to that total and a put-in at the Tyler Bend Visitor Center another 1.4 miles on top of that. All of those access point have relatively good road access so there are good prospects for being able to do a trip anywhere from 54.5 miles to 60 miles, and possibly longer.

 

[yellowcanoe]

We used BOC for a shuttle that was a pickup at Rush. This was a four day trip due to high water.. moved right along. I think they will also do pickup at White River.

We have done the lower stretch before White RIver and make sure you arrange for your vehicle at Rileys Landing. It is directly across from the end of the Buffalo where it intersects with the White. We had arranged a shuttle so that our car would be waiting for us at the public launch half a mile upstream on the White. We got to the river and found all the turbines were releasing on the White and the current was too fast to paddle against. We ferried across and thankfully found RIleys and they were kind to allow us to land there and helped us get out car.. Current must have been 8-10 mph. Powerboats were not making it either

I did like the lower Buffalo for its wilder atmosphere but to be fair I have never encountered crowds. Have done it four times in the spring and fall.. Never the summer

 

[Erica]

Thank you, yellowcanoe. We will be going in October as planned now. No big trips over this summer. :-(

 

[Guest]

Erica, we did a family summer trip on the lower Buffalo from Tyler Bend to Rush. Self-shuttled, two families, four small kids, four tandem canoes. We did it at dawdling speed,and one early site was so picturesque nice that we stayed an extra night.

As before, summer weekdays were fine. Things started to get busy on Friday. Saturday and our poorly planned Sunday take out was a zoo of rental boats and tubers. I wanted nothing more than to be off the river, which was an end-of-trip shame considering how delightful the week had previously been.

If, for some reason, the trip necessitated a weekend stay I’d be tempted to hunker down at some fine campsite at least over Saturday, and just sit & watch the zoo pass by.

The nicest Buffalo site we have ever camped on was a tall, multi-plateau bank on river right, only a half day’s float down from Tyler Bend. It was early to stop, but too nice to pass up. Or to depart the next day.

Picturesque cliff face on river left, giant boulder in the river near the right bank, with “swift” water flowing around both sides. Perfect for swimming and washing with PFD’s through the swifts. The kids loved it, and it was an ideal campsite location to practice canoe rescues and lining technique.

One caution. At low water, with weekend campsite competition, the only resort may seem to camp on some wide cobble bar 6” above the river level. Don’t resort to that; there are a lot of river miles and tributaries upstream and the Buffalo has sizable drainage; it can rise in the middle of the night faster than you can pack up and skedaddle.

Last night on the river that trip, desperation camped holy-hell-so-many-people on a cobble bar (not a comfortable tent surface). I had, as always, staked the water’s edge river level. A storm blew in, and when I got up to check the river level – oh crap – I got everyone else up and we started taking down tents and packing gear. At O’dark thirty.

It didn’t flood us out, and we were on the water really early Sunday morning, which was fine by me.

That same rising water level applies to shallow sandbar camping on the Green in Utah. I stake the water’s edge (series of left-in-place sticks) at every river or tidal flow campsite. Just out of custom and curiosity, but that rise and fall is often revealing, sometimes importantly so.

Do plan a Green River trip; you will not be disappointed.

The Green has other peculiar desert campsite challenges. Do Not set up camp anywhere that shows signs of wash. A brief storm atop the plateau can send a sudden thundering freight train of cascading water down the cliffs.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Now planning an Oct Green River trip. We will probably drag a trailer and rent a boat as performance does not matter on that river. Eddy out above sandbars. Never below. Sinkage matters.