Thoughts about this paddle design?

[Jonas Sjöblom]

I can buy that sugar islands are faster and better in shallow water. But I would never use one for a long distance on open water. The wider blade makes them heavier to paddle, putting more strain on the body. Like cycling in high gears for hours. That's not gonna work if you're going far. And why the hurry? Are we not out there to enjoy nature?
I do not believe the natives used non-optimal paddles for their situation. If sugar islands were so amazingly good they would have made their paddles like that.

Yellowcanoe, I don't really get what you mean. The grip is just a common north woods grip with some extreme notches. What exactly is it that will get painful? And calling it a disaster is just mean. Do you really have such a problem with someone trying something new?

 

[memaquay]

If sugar islands were so amazingly good they would have made their paddles like that.

Common understanding of First Nations paddles is that they were mostly constructed as one piece paddles that conformed to trees easily available for carving, hence most being under 6 inch widths. Not sure if that is true, but most Sugar Island styles are laminates. As much as I admire the past, it might be a mistake to assume that people who are the original designers of a concept have created the best design. If this were the case, we would still be using wooden wheels on our bicycles.

Paddles are situational to the mind set of the paddler and the type of paddling they do. I travel in areas where over the course of a 30 or 40 kilometre day, one might be paddling white water, big lakes, or small streams. In these situations, I have found the sugar island style to be the most adaptable. Generally speaking, I have found muscle fatigue or aches and pains when paddling to either come from poor conditioning or poor technique. For instance, for many years I was plagued with shoulder trouble. My mentor had always insisted I paddle with a ridiculously long paddle, around 60 inches. When I finally dropped down to 54 inches, and improved my paddling technique, my shoulder trouble disappeared.

However, despite my musings, please don't take them as a contrary argument. I think it's great that you are playing around with form and fit. I once built a beaver tail that was 8 inches wide! Now that sucker could push water! If you find that your new paddle is not functional, it will look great hanging on the wall beside all the other animal tale paddles, where most such paddles should live anyway. (That's a joke, I'm just ribbing you)

 

[Murat V]

Your grip design is fascinating and unique. It reminds me of another experimental design called the Battenkill Grip. Have you heard of it?

It was co-developed by Barry Beals and Jim Walker of Battenkill Canoe Ltd. The April 1997 issue of Wooden Canoe Journal (Issue 80 - Vol. 20 No.2) has an article describing its creation for a wide-bladed, whitewater paddle. Basically it is a fusion of two popular styles, the standard pear and T-grip. In theory, the flattened portion of the half pear cradles the palm more comfortably and the half-T portion allows the thumb to curl around into a more natural position while still providing a positive hold on the paddle. Here's a schematic:

The only commercial paddle maker I know of who still carves this design is Wallingford Wood. They have a pic of a Battenkill grip on the lower right.

Your grip with the "notches" sort of looks like multiple Battenkill grips that alternate up to the top. I can see how you could hook your thumb into one of the notches and paddle with that lateral "Northwoods / Native" style.

I've seen a blade design similar to yours as well. It appears on this old French print documenting plans bark trade canoe. The paddle with your design is on the left side...

Here's a closeup...

Like everyone else said, the true test will be when you get to try it out. I admire you for posting and trying to gather some constructive criticism. I hope you'll keep experimenting and posting your finding for us to enjoy.

 

[Philtrum]

Having modified a few paddle grips to make a curved T-grip, I'd say the extra "meat" on the right side of the Battenkill grip is unnecessary. It supports the heel of the grip hand, which doesn't do much, if anything. Of greater value is to be able to handle the paddle from either side, which is important in whitewater. Some folks like one-way whitewater paddles, but they're the folks who paddle on one side only.

 

[Jonas Sjöblom]

Mema, I agree the tools and materials available probably affected the paddle design greatly. But I don't mean the natives did it the best way because they are the original inventors. It's because they had thousands of years to fine tune their canoes and paddles. Now bikes have only existed for around 200 years so of course the first ones were not good, and likewise with the first canoes.
I don't think it's possible to say one design is better than the other. However it can be better for a specific purpose. Like marathon paddlers want a lot of force, white water paddlers want lots of grip in the water and trippers want to make distance without getting exhausted. And some people want to show off their expensive paddle while others want to follow the tradition.
I'd say there's more paddle preferences out there than there are actual paddlers.

Murat I've seen the battenkill grip before and I'm curious to try it out. I don't have a lot of experience with T-grips, but I can imagine it sits nicely in the hand. Like Phil said, support for the heel of the hand isn't really necessary but if you're like me and tilt the hand a bit during J-strokes it should support the palm.
It's interesting to see you found a close to identical blade shape. I'd love to hear the thoughts of whoever designed it!

 

[oldie moldy]

Well Jonas, Curiously enough I can give some background on that paddle that Murat kindly posted. The paddle was owned by one Pierre LePewu a sometimes fur trapper and general layabout. On the morning of February 23, 1653 his wife dispatched him off to the trading post with some furs to procure flour for her baking. Later, much later, in the afternoon in fact, Pierre returned. Much the worse for wear and smelling of cheap rum. He hadn't a speck of flour with him and no furs either. As wives are wont to do, his wife leapt to the conclusion that he'd been drinking.
She seized his paddle, which up to that time had a regular oval blade and began beating poor Pierre with it. His wife was one who did not believe in half measures and Pierre felt the full effect of this. As the blade began to show signs of wear on one side, she reversed her grip.

Now, as far as the thoughts of the designer: I'd guess that would have been the wife and her thoughts mainly concerned the qualities of husbands and the wisdom of doing the shopping for one's self.

Isn't history interesting?

Best Wishes, Rob

 

[shanks]

now that's funny!

 

[memaquay]

Ha ha ha, good one Rob! I'm pretty sure there are many important historical events that have similar back stories!

 

[Philtrum]

Yet another reason we need a "like" button!

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Before I continue with the criticism that's been requested, I'd like to make clear if you are interested in paddles and have a woodworking hobby, it makes eminent sense to make paddles that interest and please you -- practical, experimental, aesthetic, whatever. I like that, and would like to try all those beautiful creations. My opinions are purely as to practical utility to me.

Glenn: "The intermediate grips would be useless to me." Can you explain?

Sure. I simply have no use for a paddle that tries to masquerade as a 60", 58", 56" and 54" paddle with a gimmicky grip. I like paddles that are the right size for me in the specific waters I'm paddling. I do like a small flattish area right below the grip on a flatwater paddle so I can grip it laterally when I want. But I have no use for dropping my grip hand way down the shaft to create a much "shorter" paddle than optimal for me.

Besides, your serpentine shaft would not allow a paddler to choke up on the shaft, which is helpful with certain strokes and moves.

I can buy that sugar islands are faster and better in shallow water. But I would never use one for a long distance on open water.

I don't think it's possible to say one design is better than the other.

I can say with great confidence that animal tail, quill or rodent tail paddles are not used by any canoeing segment interested in maximal speed, power or long distance efficiency. No serious whitewater paddler, marathon racer, ocean outrigger paddler, Olympic sprint racer, or freestyle flatwater performer would use one of those paddles.

Whitewater and Olympic paddlers use a rectangular paddle blade of the Sugar Island or Honey Island type.

Flatwater freestylers use large Honey Island shapes, such as the famous Lutra and Quimby, to maximize bracing and hull torquing during high heel moves.

Marathon racers are the definitive long distance paddlers. No racer would use a long bladed paddle like an animal tail or quill. A long blade arcs too deeply in the water, lifting the bow on entry and lifting the stern on exit. All that is inefficiency. In addition, long paddles, especially long-bladed wooden animal tails, are too cumbersome to switch fast over the gunwales and become heavy clubs when lifted into the air tens of thousands of times on a long distance trip, relative to racing blade designs. Marathon racers want a short, lightweight paddle with a squat blade for minimal below-water arc and forward propulsive power.

Outrigger paddlers are the definitive long distance ocean canoe paddlers. They all choose almost exactly the same type of blades as the flatwater marathon paddlers, except most outrigger paddlers prefer the T-grip instead of the marathon pear grip.

In conclusion, the "best" paddle shapes are known by the experts in all segments of canoeing interested in speed, power and efficiency.

The marathon-outrigger shape paddles are also the most efficient and lightest weight paddles, in my less than expert opinion, for slow cruisers like me.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Another like. BTW I do believe that is Charlie with different color hair and perhaps Mary Lou Green. Sometimes it's fun to be the stern paddler and watch bottoms

 

[Canotrouge]

No Title

I used all the paddle that Glen talked about, I have paddle from 7oz to big heavy duty ww paddles, curved, dished, strait blades design. When I'm running white water rivers I use a Werner carbon Bandit, when racing(use to) I use a Levass 7oz dished blade bent shaft paddle. but when I'm tripping, on lakes and rivers, I use the one in the picture below, not an animal paddle, but one that I design that work really good... And so far, other than in a race, but just cruising on a trip no body can stay with me, they all fall behind. All that to say use what you like, but most importent, learn to paddle efficiently. Even the lightest most advance bent shaft paddle, if you don't know how to paddle won't get you anywhere!!

Cheers

 

[memaquay]

Well, there is no right or wrong, as long as people do what they like and no children are harmed. I only bought one paddle in my entire life, a Nashwaak cruiser, many years ago, because Bill Mason, Pierre Trudeau and Marco Polo had all endorsed it. When I received it, I began to understand the power of marketing and the ability to separate a sucker from his money. I held on to it until last year in case any small girls were visiting and needed a paddle, but then another sucker came along who had heard of the famed Nashwaak and traded me two boxes of Nosler Accubond .308's for it.

But I digress, I began making my own paddles several years ago, after the Nashwaak disappointment. After much experimentation, I decided I liked big beavertails, and made quite a few. Here's an example:

Over time, I found that although beautiful, I was lacking something. That's when I started making Sugar Island style paddles, and have stuck to those ever since.

Last year, Yellowcanoe convinced me to try a bent shaft, and I was suddenly converted, although after a long winter, I'm not sure if i was converted to the bent shaft or the weight of the paddle. I bought my wife a Bending branches composite thing for christmas, and it weighs around one pound.

So anyway, this year I will buy my second paddle ever. I just can't get my build weights down to the same as the pros. Think I'll go with a bending branches Espresso.

For many of us, paddling is also a journey before and after we hit the water, as we ponder what might work best for us in a given situation. I've been entrenched firmly in the traditional camp, but I'm kind of a hybrid now, I like my creature comforts and the advantages technology can give me as the body starts to degenerate.

 

[Rippy]

Mem are you going with the straight or bent shaft for your next paddle?

 

[memaquay]

Straight shaft, since I already have a pretty good bent.

 

[Jonas Sjöblom]

Glenn, my biggest interest is paddling, woodworking is just a sub hobby, though I am atm taking a 1 year woodworing course.

Those paddles you mentioned are all competition paddles. if I was competing I'd chose one too. But there is a huge difference between paddling at a leisure and paddling to win. Now I'm not saying I choose a less than optimal paddle just to go slower. I choose a paddle I find to work better for long distances without exhausting myself. The marathon paddlers don't care how they feel in the evening as long as they win. I want a relaxing evening with a lot of energy left to set camp, cook and maybe do some exploring around camp. I always bring one animal tail and one sugar island in the canoe. I switch a lot between them just to feel which I like more and I always end up with the animal tail. So that's what works best for me.
When I paddle I use short Canadian strokes and put down the blade as vertical as possible. This way I only push water backwards, not much up or down, and this results in a fast stroke rate. This requires a quite short shaft or it feels awkward.

 

[memaquay]

There's a lot to be said for maintaining a fast stroke rate. Voyageurs could maintain 50 strokes a minute for 14 hours or more with their four inch blades. I prefer to stick around 30 strokes a minute when tripping, otherwise I feel like I'm in too much of a hurry. You will find many on this site who have similar tastes to you Jonas, it's just a few of us who are noisy and don't perhaps represent the silent majority. Have you tried out your new paddle yet?

 

[yellowcanoe]

We aren't voyageurs though. Wide blades are designed for slow cadence paddling. Even whitewater paddlers do not make a lot of strokes. They do make meaningful strokes.

Wide blades transmit turning forces better due to the greater distance between the edge and the middle. Narrow blades do not transmit as much turning force and what is transmitted is dependent on the mass of the canoe being used. Narrow blades don't do squat for turning dedicated solos without a lot of work. Wide blades can spin one dedicated solo around with one J stroke.

Wide blades because they do transmit turning forces well are suboptimal for many trippers as they are continually correcting for small errors in strokes. Thats where you hear "tiring" But when each stroke is deliberate with just the force you want, they do not have to be. However I move down to a 7.5 inch wide blade from an 8 for tripping. Without portages my normal day is about 30-35 km.

I also go shorter on the blade. You younguns will find out that for each decade you need to chop off some of the length of the blade to be kind on worn out joints.

 

[Odyssey]

Every time yellowcanoe speaks I learn something. Funny how that happens.

 

[Robin]

Yet another reason we need a "like" button!

Send me a blank check, I'll get your f'in like button. How do you LIKE that?