Starting From Scratch: My Solo Canoe Shortlist

[lowangle al]

I quite dislike single carrying
I don't do trip videos as my trips aren't meant to be of interest to others. I do enjoy taking pictures and putting down and picking up that load for each pic opportunity doesn't interest me! I really value the walk backs

I agree, and about that walk back empty, it's like a "walk in the park"

 

[Guest]

I used to single trip a lot, but almost always double now. Poseing, (breaking the carry into short sections) makes it much more enjoyable for me, besides keeping your stuff safe and nearer you..

 

[deerfly]

lol, you guys are making the point regarding my tongue in cheek comment a couple pages back about hull scratches having little to do with being tired at the end of a day.

 

[charlie wilson]

Parochialism, in sports teams, government or canoe selection should be eschewed as, at least, embarrassingly unintellectual bias. I'm jumping in late, so just a couple random thoughts.

There is lots of confusion, about Yost's small and large solo trippers. Vagabond, Kestrel, Loon, Placid RapidFire, Keewaydin 14 and Trillium are all 27.5-28" wide, 14-15 feet long, skin drag iincreasing with length as does top end speed; the difference ~1/3 mph. Nomad, Heron, Merlin II, are all 28.5-29 inches wide and roughly 15 feet long. Keewaydin 15 and NorthWInd Solo have gained girth with the solo paddling population. Selection between them all should be made on the basis on knee/fanny/knee triangulation when kneeling, or stability when sitting. In the array, pick the hull that has the features you desire.?? And, Osprey will be withdrawn from the US market for '18.

In pack canoes the Swift Kee 14 pack and Pack 13.6 have similar specs; 28/27.5 in wide, WL width 25/24 but the low pack seating suggests tumblehome to allow a more vertical, hence more efficient, forward stroke with a shorter paddle that allows increased cadence. Differential rocker improves handling and tracking.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

A lot of discussion here about scratches and drag. Does anyone know how much difference it makes if scratches are shallow or deep? Gel-coat scratches deeper than uncoated fiberglass skin, generally. Given the weight difference and what I see from having both, I'd take no gel-coat on my boat if I have a choice. The Millbrook layup has worked great for me.

 

[gumpus]

I've not yet fully digested deerfly's 162 page thesis, but I've spoken to two naval engineers and John Winters and I still am not comfy with any generalizations around scratches and I don't want to quote anyone and drag them in. There's a nice graph on scienceofpaddling part 2 showing skin friction versus form drag that looks just like automotive stuff. Friction important at 1 mph but not so much at 3 mph. Deeper scratches are worse in principle but I think Deerfly nailed it with maybe it ain't a big deal...theory also says scratches in front are worse since not possible to maintain laminar flow over dull hull, plus there are turbulence effects from the paddle and boat yaw. Also agree with Charlie that several boats re clustered in their performance with many uncontrolled variables so one twst means nothing except maybe a hypothesis requiring more investigation.

 

[gumpus]

Sorry for typos...gotta be quick on this site.

 

[gumpus]

Hey jm0278 if I could only have one boat I would keep my Osprey since it is fine for traveling and is still way fun on ponds and rivers. If you want a bullet then maybe something like a Wenonah advantage...but it does not turn. Kestrel turns cooperatively...so does Peregrine and Kee 15, and vagabond and nomad a bit less so due to less rocker and more vertical ends. I'd recommend a boat that fits your weight load for best performance although I prefer a little extra room.

 

[frozentripper]

Idaho Steve,

A lot of discussion here about scratches and drag. Does anyone know how much difference it makes if scratches are shallow or deep?

I really don't know how much but here is a little story by John Winters... he suggests it's worth filling in the scratches. And as with the ancient wise saying that shiny red canoes always go faster, maintaining a smooth hull valued for performance could be worth it.

This little story may help you justify fixing the scratches.

Years ago a customer came into a canoe comapny swearing that the design had been changed and that his old boat was not as fast as the new version. How did he know? He had been tripping with a friend who owned a new one and no matter who paddled the new boat it always pulled ahead.

Since I designed the boat and knew nothing had changed (boats made from the same mold) I looked at his boat which had plenty of scars from use. Those scratches could cause as much as a 25% increase in frictional resistance especially if most of (as in this case) were at or near the bow. So, sure enough his boat was slower but not because of any change in the boat. The problem is that you won't notice the change because it happens so slowly. The effect of a few scratches you won't notice at all and as the effect grows you just get used to it until at some point you begin to wonder if you aren't showing your age.

http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10303&hilit=scratch

 

[Guest]

For a double paddle in my kneeling solos I use a 250cm bending branches

I never went longer. 230 works fine

I also find a 230 or 240 to work in any canoe - including the more flat water tandems I've had. I just use a higher angle stroke in the wider boats.

Double blade length is probably harder to ascertain than single blade length.

Shorter length double blades require a higher angle stroke. I’m a low angle double blader and find that I prefer a 260cm as an all around double in boats 30 – 32 inches wide at the point where I initiate my paddle stroke. In the wider center-seat soloized tandems a 270 isn’t too much.

Double blade length, besides high angle/low angle, also depends on how far below the gunwales the seat is positioned and paddler height &wingspan.

Aqua-Bound has a “Fit Guide” for choosing double blade style that recommends length for paddler height and boat width. This is for kayaks, so seat height is not factored into their equation. Using that guide I am most comfortable going 10cm longer than their recommendation.

https://www.aquabound.com/kayak-paddle-sizing-guide

As a personal preference I do not much like double blades that are length adjustable. The mechanisms seem finicky or frou frou. I do like a double that is feather angle adjustable in 15 degree increments. I had previously used a variety of doubles with fixed feather angles from 90 degree to 45ish.

When I got an adjustable feather ferrule I discovered that my most comfortable feather angle is 30 degree, right hand control, and rarely use any other feather when not paddling with the blades straight.

For a first boat I would go with a more middle of the road type boat as apposed to a sit on the bottom boat for safety especially if you may take trips up to 10 days. It will certainly give you a better feel for what canoeing is about.

I agree. Much as I love the RapidFire and enjoyed our pack canoes for a “Starting from Scratch” solo canoe, for general purpose paddling – lakes, rivers, small water explores and week+ tripping I would find a dedicated solo with a hung seat that suits my length/width/maneuverability/stability preferences.

Almost any hung seat can be DIY altered to customize seat depth, which greatly affects initial stability (and keeping your head inside the gunwales).

 

[yellowcanoe]

I get by with shorter as I us thin long blades. Not typical Euro blades
And that allows me not to have to feather

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Idaho Steve,



I really don't know how much but here is a little story by John Winters... he suggests it's worth filling in the scratches. And as with the ancient wise saying that shiny red canoes always go faster, maintaining a smooth hull valued for performance could be worth it.





http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10303&hilit=scratch

Well, hey - I haven't noticed any change. Imagine that.

Just makes me wonder - how does one fill scratches that are not much more than microscopic in depth, without diminishing returns? And are lengthwise scratches worth dealing with at all.

I remember reading a discussion some time back, in which some folks swore by the use of paste wax and buffing (often) to fill microscopic scratches. At the same time, others pointed to a study that purported to show those micro abrasions may actually decrease drag, due to the microscopic cavitation.

As I mentioned overthinking in the other thread, I think it's possible that applies here as well. Most of us can realize more gain from simply paddling better or paddling more. But, filling scratches can look nice.

Anyhow....Millbrook's layup is highly resistant to scratches, and I expect that is the case for some others that skip the gel-coat.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Skin coat scratches very easily compared to gel
When the fibers are exposed that's where degradation starts
Gel coat is more resistant. However I don't know what Millbrook uses. I'm more familiar with Wenonah. Not all gel coat is coloured
Shawn Burke would notice speed degradation from scratches when he is in race mode. I'm never in race mode

 

[jm0278]

Hello again Everybody,

As mentioned in my other topic, I've been silent the past couple of days because I went to Canada to test paddle boats at Swift Canoe. I tested an Adirondack 13.6 with a kayak paddle, a Keewaydin 14 and 15, and a Shearwater. The latter three all being standard solo canoes, i.e. not the pack boat variety.

The 13.6 and the Keewaydin 14 were both much more twitchy than I expected, but more than anything, they just "felt" too small. The Shearwater was suggested by a very knowledgeable Swift employee but was just a touch too wide -- I wasn't as comfortable reaching out to paddle it but it certainly felt the most stable of all the boats. To the point, I had instant rapport with the Keewaydin 15. It was like when you're trying on shoes and when you find the pair that really fit you just know it.

I was able to get back out on Canisbay Lake for a short paddle before the weather moved in (moderate thunderstorms, lightning, heavy rain). It was a good first "unsupervised" paddle with the canoe and I gained some confidence in my ability to paddle with a fair bit of wind at various and varying angles. Now that I've got the canoe home, I'm able to work up some skills and fitness over the next few weeks before taking it out for my first true backcountry trip in the fall.

As I mentioned in my other topic, I often thought of the comments and experience people shared with me here on this forum while I was over there. What I didn't mention in the other post is that it is quite likely I would have chosen poorly had it not been for the advice I've received here. I am very confident that the Keewaydin 15 is the right boat for me and am looking forward to the adventures to come.

Thanks!

Jim

 

[frozentripper]

First, JM, best wishes for many happy miles spent in the new canoe and congrats in very well thought-out process in selection.

Idaho...

As I mentioned overthinking in the other thread, I think it's possible that applies here as well. Most of us can realize more gain from simply paddling better or paddling more. But, filling scratches can look nice...

I agree to some extent that we're overthinking this, and JW's statement that most paddlers wouldn't be aware of the efficiency losses of a badly scratched hull supports that. But I think if you're interested in finding out what the reality is out there, all that testing and evaluation done in the past by boat designers and engineers (which includes JW), does add up to something, smooth hulls are more efficient.

There may be noise in the system that could be masking the recognition, wind, waves, fatigue, comfort, paddling style... I know after an especially rough port, I'm pretty much knocked out when it comes to picking up on anything subtle in canoe response. And while paddling, it's usually not thinking about how efficiently the canoe is performing, instead, it's about seeing the sights and being on the water. Still, every once in a while, there's the thought of how nicely the canoe's slipping through the water and maybe the thought that the hull surface smoothness helps with that adds to the enjoyment.

 

[Guest]

Since I am justly famous for scratching my canoes, every year I sand them with progressively finer sandpaper and buff them. I really don't mind the look of scratches, but do it to improve efficiency.

 

[gumpus]

Idaho Steve,

I like the 25% estimate much better than John Winters statement on the greenval site where he said a year of scratches could double the drag coefficient (100 percent) and offset other design factors so I traded a couple emails it's him and he gave me some very thoughtful feedback. My favorite comments were "there are a lot of variables", "theory can be deceptive", and "subjective impressions can be misleading".

In the spirit of knowledge gathering and at great personal risk I'm going to start a separate thread on this topic.



I really don't know how much but here is a little story by John Winters... he suggests it's worth filling in the scratches. And as with the ancient wise saying that shiny red canoes always go faster, maintaining a smooth hull valued for performance could be worth it.





http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10303&hilit=scratch

 

[Hays]

Jumping in late here and may have missed some pertinent information but Wenonah canoes should be on your list. Their Vagabond is a good first solo boat. Solos feel a lot less stable that your typical tandem so it's important to get a boat that doesn't put you in the water rather than on it. The Vagabond is narrow but does well with a good load. I transitioned from backpacking to canoeing too and can say that your lightweight gear will be a real asset no matter what boat you get. Just my thoughts.

 

[Cruiser]

Congrats Jim,

The Key 15 is a great choice and is the one I would have selected as well .... as you grow into the boat, I suspect you will come to like it more and more.


Brian

 

[Jd4436]

Any thoughts on the Mad River 13' Serenade ?