Staples holes

[Jim Dodd]

I was engaged in conversation on filling staple holes here recently, and so I thought I'd throw this out, and invite comments.

First I use two different staples in my builds. One penetrates the hull and holds strips against the hull, the 9/16" staples. The other holds strips together, 1/4" staples, and they do not penetrate the hull.

Usually I seal coat my hulls. I then wait about an hour, and paint over the staple holes with mixed epoxy resin. This double coat works great, as long as you lower the temperature of the hull while the resin cures. This helps prevent resin from weeping through the 9/16" staple holes, as well as stops the bubbles developing in the 1/4" staple holes.

In the Summer its hard to lower the temperature of the hull, and so I use a hair dryer to super heat the hull, where the staple holes are. This works. Just be sure NOT to borrow your Wife's good hair dryer, unless you are willing to buy her a replacement. Tip Buy her a better one than she had before !!

On Nokomis, I opted to forego the seal coat, and fill the 9/16" staple holes with my strip glue, Elmer's Max. On the 1/4" staples, I relied on lowering the hull temperature to stop the out gassing, or bubbles.

Here's two pics, one with filled staple holes, and the other, without any filler at all.

The top is with Elmers Max
The bottom without filler.

To me there is not much difference,

What do you guys use ?

Jim

 

[wysedav]

Thanks for the follow up Jim, I think both look good to me. If I'm lucky with the darker Redwood I'm using the holes might just disappear. I mostly just don't want air bubbles behing the glass at the staple holes. Your techniques seem like they will do the trick.

 

[Wyo George]

I wipe my hulls down generously with steaming hot water before doing any fairing or epoxy work. It swells the staples holes a bit and they are much less visible when finished, plus it's a lot less work than filling them all. When that doesn't work out I like to ignore them and hope they go away.

 

[Mihun09]

You know, you could always just go without staples at all... just sayin.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Yeah This is just for those who don't go stapleless !

 

[memaquay]

I stopped filling staple holes many builds ago. Haven't noticed difference, except there's a lot less work, lol.

 

[Cruiser]

The debate between stapled and stapleless always seems to end up revolving around how much less work stapled is ... then I read a post like this about the best way to fill all those holes the staples leave.

I would suggest that in those cases, where you feel the holes need to be filled after stripping, that you have selected the wrong build technique for stripping and should consider stapleless next time.

I subscribe to the idea that the hull needs to please the builders eye once completed, if the holes don't bother you, then building with staples produces an acceptable product for the builder.

However, if the builder feels the need to then add cosmetics to those holes when you finish, I would suggest that in those cases, the holes do bother the builder and a lot of extra work has created by using staples and it may be time to review the building technique you use.

When discussions over staple vs stapleless hulls take place, it always seems to end up revolving about how much less work using staples is .... while I agree that initially using staples to strip saves time (only for the stripping process), I am not convinced that there is actually much "work" savings once you figure putting all the staples in, then pulling them all out ... and if you then add in putting cosmetics on the holes, well ... that just seems like a lot of extra steps and work.

That's when I agree with Mihun "You know, you could always just go without staples at all... just sayin"

 

[Jim Dodd]

Yes ! It's all about Cosmetics ! I can fill the staples holes before glassing easily, with a quick wipe of mixed epoxy. It's effective ! But more noticeable than when filled with Elmers MAX !

I just read a post lately about How Fast can you strip up a hull ? Several stated they could easily strip a canoe in two days or less, by themselves, using Staples ! A friend of mine did one in two days, he was at it feverishly though!

I started building the Last hull, ( The Nokomis Wood Shop's) Stapleless ! I had to try it ! Made up some great spring clamps that worked great ! Also some bungees, with quick locks that were even better ! But when I got up around the bilge of this Wee Lassie type boat, it wasn't enough, to hold the strips True to the forms ! I switched back to Staples ! It did !

Ted Moores, Nick Schade both have taught week long building classes, in which they complete a canoe ! If they had to use the Stapleless method, It would be near impossible for them with students, to construct a canoe, in that amount of time ! Simple as that !

Now, if you use Hot melt glue, and some are, to hold their strips in place. Allowing them to keep stripping ? That is great ! But you better Know what you are doing, or you could easily Destroy the hull, removing it from the forms !!! Usually the forms suffer, making them useless for the next hull.

It is always the Builders Choice ! And I respect that !
Just beware of the pitfalls, if going Stapleless !

Jim

 

[Cruiser]

I guess I need to be careful when I use the word "time" in reference to the build ... i am talking about the actual amount of time spent working .... the chief advantage in going with staples is that you don't need to stop and let the glue setup after 6 - 8 strips, as you do with stapleless. So from a PoV of actual days to complete the build, going without staples will add 3-4 actual calendar days to the process, but actual time (hours) spent working on the boat during those days will be part time. An interesting side question would be how the two methods would compare if based on actual worked hours .... I suspect that putting in and taking out the staples would pretty much make the hours fairly close .... but I can't ever see the calendar days being close, due to the frequent glue setup times required for stapleless.

Depending on the builders schedule, part time evening sessions to get a few strips on, can actually work out quite well (like my first boat) ....

To hold the strips to the right shape, I use a cam buckle strap at each mold, I have never had an issue getting the strips to conform to the proper shape ... actually at the bilge is likely the one place where the straps work best.

On my next build (stapleless) I intend to add your clamps (they are a great idea) to my equipment inventory and I am pretty confident I could get the stripping done in a calendar week. I usually take longer .... simply because I plan other work and work part time on stripping ( I will set this as my own personal challenge).

As far as completing a canoe in a week .... I can't speak for Nicks classes, but Ted Moores classes complete a hull, that is ready for final sanding, varnishing, adding seats, adding thwarts etc and I agree that this wouldn't be possible, without using the stapled method.

However , I think those types of claims are taken out of context with the build, as a whole project .... stripping the hull is just one part of the process, separating out the stripping process and saying you can get the hull stripped and glassed in 5 days, then morphing that into saying "completing a canoe in 5 days" isn't really applicable to the regular builder and depending on your definition of "complete", may not be accurate either.

If you follow the steps a regular builder follows ... source lumber, mill strips (accents or patterns more time), setup forms (maybe build strongback), strip hull, sand/fair hull, glass outside, glass inside, sand glass, let epoxy cure .... then on to finishing .... varnish/paint, adding details like thwarts/seats/decks, which I suspect most of us make our own as well ... then the extra few calendar days that stapleless building costs, really makes little difference to the project timeline as a whole.

Deciding on stapled or stapleless IMO is about the same decision as adding accent strips, flashy decks, building your own seat or carving your own yoke ... they all represent your view of the project, whether that be more utilitarian, ornamental or maybe a bit of each ..... each decision also comes with a potential build time/$$ cost .... and both give the same finished hull, from a performance stand point.

So as Jim said "It's always the builders Choice"

Brian

 

[Iskweo]

If you use staples try to keep them all in line so it looks more purposeful maybe?

If you want to go stapleless then you have to prep your forms,with cutout holes like a stem mold, or router a groove in them to snag the spring clamps. This of course means a slowish build as you can do perhaps two strips at most concurrently.

The other solution is paint the outside of your hull like karin did. That makes for a nice looking canoe and cleans up the exterior pretty well.

 

[Alan Gage]

An interesting side question would be how the two methods would compare if based on actual worked hours .... I suspect that putting in and taking out the staples would pretty much make the hours fairly close ....

I'd guess it takes less time to staple strips in place than it does to rig up other fasteners and straps to hold them. It takes 45 minutes or less to pull staples from a hull.

But like you said when you figure in the total time it takes to build a canoe the time difference between staples/no staples isn't such a big deal and it comes down to personal working preference.

The amount of staples (and the seeming randomness) I use when building a hull would make some builders cringe. But it suits my working style and I'm perfectly happy with the final product.

Alan

 

[Cruiser]

Iskeo, you don't actually have to do anything to the molds, that is just one way to do it .... I don't do anything extra to the molds, the key is to figure a way to hold the strips snugly to the molds AND make it easy to use. I have used several versions of straps that wrap around the molds and they have all worked really well.

The extra days for the stripping is pretty much waiting for the glue to set between strips, so your glue selection is one of the main problems with going stapleless. If you can get a glue which sets up in about 10-15 minutes, you likely won't be spending very much time waiting, meaning you can apply more strips per session. If you select something like TiteBond III, the set time will effectively slow progress to a crawl ... so picking the right glue is a critical step and in this case something like TB III is really not a good pick .... very long set time and a strength that is excessive overkill for purpose (it will work, but it is a poor pick).

With the LePages Express, I found that by the time I got the alternate side ready for a strip, the previous side was set enough to release the straps, so stripping wasn't really slowed by being stapleless .... it wasn't as fast as it might have been, but I am also a tad "picky" ....

At the end of the day, both methods require application of glue, "holding" at the mold, clamping along the strip ..... for me it really comes down to placing a staple at each mold versus pulling a strap tight ... all the rest is the same. The stapled method does not require the glue to set, the stapleless does .... that is why I suggest glue selection is the critical build component for going stapleless.



Brian