Snaps?

[yellowcanoe]

One problem with velcro. When it gets dirty it does not adhere to itself..I had velcroed covers on my Rapid Fire and found that a stiff brush was an essential part of gear.. When they are even slightly dirty they simply parted.

Thats when I went to snaps. Checking my CCS cover the tunnel is nylon ( sil) . Its annoyingly slippery and has an icky feel next to you. The rest of the cover is not silnylon. I love my CCS silnylon tarp but would not want it for an entire spray cover.

 

[Guest]

Like this-

Made by ITW. I buy them from Hudson4supplies. Use 1/2 inch webbing to sew them along the edge of the spray cover.

Alternatively sew cam lock buckles on to the top of the cover and run webbing from the buckle to the edge of the spray cover then down under the cord and back to the cam lock buckle. The buckle would be out of the way of your hands so that would work for a full cover.

I should have figured that ITW Nexus would make something like that. They make every imaginable style of hook, loop and buckle.

http://na.itwnexus.com/

Thanks for the Hudson 4 Supplies recommendation; I didn’t know that ITW had a distributor.

http://www.hudson4supplies.com/

I see your point. I will be sewing up two covers this spring. Maybe I will stick with the loop over like before. I still don't want to fuss with snaps

What about replacing the velcro with a strong magnet sewn into the cover?

I think the Velcro strips looped under a perimeter cord is a fine KISS solution. With the Velcro hook & looped together in use it shouldn’t pick up as much gunk as when exposed, and that system would work with existing perimeter float bag line. It probably isn’t the solution for an expedition spray cover, but for occasional rain and spray use it sounds easy to make and install, and it provides some adjustability.

I’d nix the magnet idea. It would require a seriously strong magnets. I have a couple of ceramic magnets in the shop that are strong enough to pinch a blood blister on a wayward finger, but when I dropped one it shattered.

Thats when I went to snaps. Checking my CCS cover the tunnel is nylon ( sil) . Its annoyingly slippery and has an icky feel next to you. The rest of the cover is not silnylon. I love my CCS silnylon tarp but would not want it for an entire spray cover.

I had the same thought about a cover make of sil-nylon. It is so slippery it might be an additional hassle to lay in place while attaching. I think (?) sil-nylon also poses some sewing difficulties, at least for the novice.

 

[yellowcanoe]

there is velcro and there is velcro. If you go with it as I did on my RapidFire get the industrial grade. Standard has no grab. I had some swearing today while trying to get standard velcro to reattach to its mate on a Croc in the wind. We were on Apalachicola River and I need my crocs to reach the rudder pedal.. One heel strap develcroed and I had to chase the darn croc into the bow of the Monarch in a 20 mph wind.. losing all control of the boat.Today was NOT a velcro day.

You may need a heavy duty sewing machine though.

 

[latremorej]

With light wieght Silnylon there is a bit of difficulty sewing due to the slippery factor. Can't iron out a seam either. I just go really slow and re adjust every 6 inches or so. I used green painters tape to test fit the strap locations. But for someone who has never sewn Silnylon before it is a PITA, pins help.... Lots of pins. I tried double stick tape once... once only. I then realized that the sticky stuff really messes up the machine badly. Total breakdown and cleaning with alcohol. A regular light duty machine will work just fine.

YC, I'm sure the velcro on your Crocks see more use in a month than my cover will see in two seasons! Like I said before, my cover and it's velcro should last me a pretty long time. I'm not saying that it's the best solution, just a different one that would be suited for occasional light duty use.


Jason

 

[yellowcanoe]

My velcro failed on the first day I ever wore them I was not dissing velcro but be aware that not all velcro is alike. Mine on the Rapid Fire is industrial grade and fails only when dirty or under tension, as in a pack that is too tall.

 

[Guest]

My velcro failed on the first day I ever wore them I was not dissing velcro but be aware that not all velcro is alike.

I am generally not a fan of Velcro. In some applications, like paddle shaft restraint straps on spray covers, it remains one of the better options.

My least favorite use of Velcro is when it is used on both rain jacket sleeve closures and on the pocket flaps.

Yes Mr. Designer, I am going to stick my hand in the pocket; I put things in there, ya know. And so yes, the Velcro on my cuff is going to get stuck on the Velcro on the pocket every dang time. Maddening.

I know what Kim means about loose stuff wandering afar in decked boats without bulkheads. I am pretty anal about sticking my head inside the hull to scan the bow and stern for gear I missed when unloading.

I guess sometimes I forget though. I was taking the Monarch off the roof racks at a day’s drive distant launch a few years ago and noticed an empty dromedary bag wayyy up in the stem. It had been overlooked when I loaded the boat coming off a trip a month before and magically stayed there for a 500 mile drive home, followed by a 500 mile drive the next month.

 

[Alan Gage]

Since we've kind of moved onto the topic of velcro perhaps something like 3M's Dual lock would be more suitable to outdoor applications:

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Adhesives/Tapes/Brands/Dual-Lock-Reclosable-Fasteners/

Stripperguy has sung its praises before and after messing with some of it I think it looks like a better deal. Instead of hook and loop both surfaces are the same; stiff plastic bristles that interlock. Hard to separate in shear or when pulling straight apart but seems to release pretty easily when peeled apart. It looks like they'd be less prone to getting clogged and easier to clean when they did. I don't have any practical experience with it in the field though.

Alan

 

[Guest]

Since we've kind of moved onto the topic of velcro perhaps something like 3M's Dual lock would be more suitable to outdoor applications:

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Adhesives/Tapes/Brands/Dual-Lock-Reclosable-Fasteners/

Stripperguy has sung its praises before and after messing with some of it I think it looks like a better deal. Instead of hook and loop both surfaces are the same; stiff plastic bristles that interlock. Hard to separate in shear or when pulling straight apart but seems to release pretty easily when peeled apart. It looks like they'd be less prone to getting clogged and easier to clean when they did. I don't have any practical experience with it in the field though.

I see that Dual Lock comes in strip rolls in a variety of guises, so that might be just the serious tenacity ticket for securing a cover in the LatremoreJ spray cover design.

The more I think about that Velcro (or Dual Lock) method of wrapping a strip of Velcro under a perimeter line the more I like it. It would afford a sewing only alternative, eliminating hassle of installing the female snap rivets in the cover and the need for a snap rivet gun nose piece to install the snaps on the hull. Plus it would work with perimeter line float bag lacing, nice and flush with no hooks or snaps to rasp knuckles against outside the hull.

Me likee Velcro attachment strips more all the time for a simple rain or spray cover. Snaps can be hard pressed on the thumb, and require some exactitude of mating the male to female snap alignment. Using Velcro or Dual Lock would alleviate that GRRRHHH millimeter off pairing pain, and allow some spray cover adjustability to boot.

Stripperguy, how has the Dual Lock faired in real world use over time?

Rider, perimeter line lacing drilled under the gunwales can be a simple and very functional addition to a canoe, not just for holding float bags in place, but for tying in gear and etc.

If I had it to do over again on the Freedom Solo or Odyssey I would drill the lacing holes a bit further down from the outwales for better spray cover fit, an add a little free-floating dingleberry cord loop or nylon ring to each section of interior lacing line for multi-functionality tie downs.

It is awkward to pass a length cord under that perimeter line when it is taut, but a little cord loop or nylon D on the interior sections would be easily accessible. And when I do not have the float bags in place I’d prefer not to have the cross-hull lacing to deal with.

 

[rider1]

I see that Dual Lock comes in strip rolls in a variety of guises, so that might be just the serious tenacity ticket for securing a cover in the LatremoreJ spray cover design.

The more I think about that Velcro (or Dual Lock) method of wrapping a strip of Velcro under a perimeter line the more I like it. It would afford a sewing only alternative, eliminating hassle of installing the female snap rivets in the cover and the need for a snap rivet gun nose piece to install the snaps on the hull. Plus it would work with perimeter line float bag lacing, nice and flush with no hooks or snaps to rasp knuckles against outside the hull.

Me likee Velcro attachment strips more all the time for a simple rain or spray cover. Snaps can be hard pressed on the thumb, and require some exactitude of mating the male to female snap alignment. Using Velcro or Dual Lock would alleviate that GRRRHHH millimeter off pairing pain, and allow some spray cover adjustability to boot.

Stripperguy, how has the Dual Lock faired in real world use over time?

Rider, perimeter line lacing drilled under the gunwales can be a simple and very functional addition to a canoe, not just for holding float bags in place, but for tying in gear and etc.

If I had it to do over again on the Freedom Solo or Odyssey I would drill the lacing holes a bit down from the outwales for better spray cover fit, an add a little free-floating dingleberry cord loop or nylon ring to each section of interior lacing line for multi-functionality tie downs.

It is awkward to pass a length cord under that perimeter line when it is taut, but a little cord loop or nylon D on the interior sections would be easily accessible. And when I do not have the float bags in place I’d prefer not to have the cross-hull lacing to deal with.

Yeah Mike, I'm thinking about on the same lines as you on the perimeter line, and the Velcro method.
It's good to see that there are so many options to think about but, As now, I haven't gotten that far into my project.
I had to literally clean my attic out to find my old sewing machine. Once I found it, I set it up and started going over it, and found out why it was up there.
My old 1970s Belvedere Adler 950-b Deluxe Automatic zigzag sewing machine, in the cabinet looked at nice as the day it was bought, but I found that the Dial Tension Assembly was broken and I can't find one, that is a match , as yet.
Yep! I know the internet has what you want, just have to find it..ha! ha! That's me, laughing at myself. Me and the internet have a love, hate thing going on.
Anyway, For now, I'll keep looking at you guys posts, and looking for my part, and soon something will come together.
And Yeah! I think I stirred up a beast...lol
Thanks for all the great ideas fellas.
Rider1

 

[Bothwell Voyageur]

Dual Lock is very stiff. Is it available in a form that could be sewn to fabric? I have mostly used it for mounting plastic signs to aluminum rails.

Many of the folk who bought Teva sandals found out the hard way that Velcro is not good in wet situations. Swimming to shore and finding that one of your sandals was missing made for fun times!
I recall Teva selling a small o-ring that secured the Velcro strap. I bought a pair of their Guide sandals that used buckles instead. A pig to adjust, but you knew that as long as your feet were still attached to your legs you'd still have a complete pair at the end of the day.

 

[Bothwell Voyageur]

If it is difficult to pass cord through the hull lacing won't it be just as hard to push the fabric flaps and Velcro through?

 

[rider1]

Dual Lock is very stiff. Is it available in a form that could be sewn to fabric? I have mostly used it for mounting plastic signs to aluminum rails.

Many of the folk who bought Teva sandals found out the hard way that Velcro is not good in wet situations. Swimming to shore and finding that one of your sandals was missing made for fun times!
I recall Teva selling a small o-ring that secured the Velcro strap. I bought a pair of their Guide sandals that used buckles instead. A pig to adjust, but you knew that as long as your feet were still attached to your legs you'd still have a complete pair at the end of the day.

{Is it available in a form that could be sewn to fabric? I have mostly used it for mounting plastic signs to aluminum rails.}

I've been looking around to see if you can sew it to fabric, with no success. It looks like to me, that it's made for stuff like you've used it for, on signs and such. Also I can't find any app. for sticking it to a ploy surface, like a canoe. The reason that I would want to stick it to the canoe is, I thought if I could make a cover that had flaps/ tails, on the edges, with the Dual Lock sewn on it and the dual lock, stuck to the canoe, I wouldn't have to drill holes in my canoe, or use the cordage method.
I think I've fixed my sewing machine last night, so now, I'm looking for the right fabric that I want to use. The 1.9 rip stop is what I wanted, but I don't know how hard it is to use, being so slippery, and I've not sewn for so long.
Luckily, I have a friend that has an upholstery shop, if I need the help. The design of the cover is going to determine all of that.
Snow on the ground and windy out, so looks like a good coffee and internet day!
Rider1

 

[Guest]

If it is difficult to pass cord through the hull lacing won't it be just as hard to push the fabric flaps and Velcro through?

With the ½ inch toggles on the Freedom Solo/Odyssey there was no way I was passing the toggle under the perimeter cord without adding a taut line hitch to loosen for some slack in the line.

The real difficulty in using the perimeter line to criss cross for float bag lacing or tie in gear is the depth of the vinyl inwale. There isn’t much gunwale lip on the outside and I can easily see the perimeter line, but on the inside the line is hidden from view below the thick inwales and problematic to access, even with some slack in the line.

Again, if I had it to do over again I would drill the holes for the perimeter line a bit lower and add a little cord loop or small d-ring to each interior section of the perimeter cord, so I had something easy to pass line through for float bags or tying in gear.

For passing the Velcro strips under the perimeter line it would help to cut the ends at an angle rather than flat, so there was a pointy end to help start the pass under. I have cut that angle on every webbing strap I own to make it easier to get the webbing through a ladder lock or cam.

 

[latremorej]

I drilled my holes about 2 and a half inches below my vinyl gunnels on that old pack. It give enough room to lock down the cover but isn't so low that you can't use it to tie in gear. As far as slipping things through the lacing, I drilled my holes small enough that the cord is barely larger than the hole. This helps with any water getting in. The rope sort of plugs up the hole creating a seal, in a way, when I laced up the canoe, I placed a 1/4" spacer in between the hull and the rope. As you lace up the canoe, the rope pretty much stays in place and there is absolutely no trouble slipping anything through. I suppose that if you wanted half inch toggles, you could place the toggles in between the hull and lacing for spacers and make a larger gap. Just don't forget to add the spacing distance in to your overall rope length calculations or you'll be a foot or two short!

As far as the new velcro stuff, that would be cool if you could find a sewing machine tuff enough to drive a needle through it and thread that won't break on the extra stiff .... what's it called?... male sides? I was also thinking about trying the 3M picture hanging velcro stuff too. Every time my wife wants me to shuffle pictures around on the walls I end up with 2 or 3 of the velcro type strips with the sticky pulled off. I haven't tried sewing it onto nylon. Yet though

Great ideas!

Jason

 

[yknpdlr]

I made my own Hornbeck cover (with the help of my better half) using some coated nylon I found at JoAnn Fabrics. I found a package of snaps with threaded screws at the local hardware store. I used a pool noodle with a small wood dowel to make the rolled water dam. Total cost was $24, most of it in snaps. The stern portion is custom fit over my backpack. I used this system for a 185 mile cross-Adirondack trek to Cumberland Head on Lake Champlain, including 62 miles of carries. The spray cover kept me afloat in wind and waves on the Adirondack larger lakes, and in big rollers when crossing Lake Champlain.

For our voyageur canoe we use on the Yukon races, we use 2" wide velcro. Soft side is glued to under the gunwale, and the hook side hand sewn to the fitted fabric. Each paddler has their own section that velcro attaches to the next as well as the gunwale. Middle paddlers slide seats side to side on roller wheels, so the fabric has to be loose enough to accommodate that action.

 

[dogbrain]

I'm looking around and can't seem to find what people are using for the male side of the snap that connects to the canoe. Are you guys using a rivet to attach to the hull? All I seem to find are either sheet metal type screw snaps or machine bolt style snaps. Where did you get them?

Thanks, Mark

 

[yknpdlr]

I'm looking around and can't seem to find what people are using for the male side of the snap that connects to the canoe. Are you guys using a rivet to attach to the hull? All I seem to find are either sheet metal type screw snaps or machine bolt style snaps. Where did you get them?

Thanks, Mark

For my Hornbeck (shown above), I used the sheet metal type screw type of snap, since my Hornbeck has wood gunwales. If I did it again I would use velcro, such as we use on the voyageur canoe.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I'm looking around and can't seem to find what people are using for the male side of the snap that connects to the canoe. Are you guys using a rivet to attach to the hull? All I seem to find are either sheet metal type screw snaps or machine bolt style snaps. Where did you get them?

Thanks, Mark

Rivets. I got my snaps from Dan Cooke.