Seat Frame Mortise

[Jim Dodd]

Jim, it’s good to see so many old build threads resurrected, there is a lot of valuable information there.

Question about the carriage bolt length – is the excess bolt end sticking out below the seat frame there to provide the bolt length needed to change out the seat drops for something akin to a sit on the bottom style pack canoe arrangement?

I just hadn't trimmed them yet ! I usually paddle the canoe awhile, and if I'm happy with the height of the seat ? I trim ! I would hate to catch a pant leg on one though !

Jim

 

[Guest]

I just hadn't trimmed them yet ! I usually paddle the canoe awhile, and if I'm happy with the height of the seat ? I trim ! I would hate to catch a pant leg on one though !

Raw machine screw or carriage bolt ends sticking out under the seat give me the willies too; entrapment via catching a pant leg or shoe lace, or simply slicing flesh. I leave just enough room for a washer, lock washer, nut and a nice smooth cap nut (which are also pricey).

How do you cut your carriage bolts? I don’t like trying to cut them in situ, working a hacksaw or reciprocating saw inside the boat as the hull wiggles around. I’ve tried marking the bolts, taking them out and cutting them after threading on a couple nuts to unscrews in hopes of cleaning up the threads, but reinstalling the nut and cap nut on the cut ends is still often frustrating.

I have not found a satisfactory way to cleanly cut SS machine screws or carriage bolts and just try to keep a length-appropriate assortment of machine screw/bolt in the shop, which becomes a really pricey solution.

Is there a shop trick to it?

 

[Alan Gage]

I've never had much trouble cutting bolts. I either use the cutoff saw or a hacksaw and then go to the bench grinder and hold the bolt at a steep angle while spinning it. This removes the bur left from cutting and gives it a little cone shape on the end. It's not the best method but it's quick and I can almost always get a nut on. I'd probably have better luck if I could ever remember to put a nut on before cutting the bolt.

Alan

 

[Boatman53]

That’s my method too. Run on a nut, cut usually with a hacksaw but on the boat I’d use a Dremel, then a trip to the belt sander or grinder, then take the nut off.

Jim

 

[Cruiser]

Getting those longer length bolts (SS) in smaller diameters can be a challenge, last time I needed some, I bought 1.5" bolts and a length of threaded rod. My neighbour has a welder at work and he chopped the rod into 5" pieces and welded the pieces up .... worked really well and you don't need a bolt any thicker than that usually.

It's just an option if you have a welder available.

Brian

 

[Jim Dodd]

Getting those longer length bolts (SS) in smaller diameters can be a challenge, last time I needed some, I bought 1.5" bolts and a length of threaded rod. My neighbour has a welder at work and he chopped the rod into 5" pieces and welded the pieces up .... worked really well and you don't need a bolt any thicker than that usually.

It's just an option if you have a welder available.

Brian

Interesting ! In my early canoes, I would purchase Zinc 1/4" Carriage bolts, up to 7" long at the local Hardware store, for about $1.50/ #.

I would Braze the heads, and polish, to make them look like Bronze ! It worked great ! It's just that now days, everybody looks down on Zinc !

Thanks for bringing back that memory. I still have a few Brazed up carriage bolts !

Jim

 

[Jim Dodd]

Raw machine screw or carriage bolt ends sticking out under the seat give me the willies too; entrapment via catching a pant leg or shoe lace, or simply slicing flesh. I leave just enough room for a washer, lock washer, nut and a nice smooth cap nut (which are also pricey).

How do you cut your carriage bolts? I don’t like trying to cut them in situ, working a hacksaw or reciprocating saw inside the boat as the hull wiggles around. I’ve tried marking the bolts, taking them out and cutting them after threading on a couple nuts to unscrews in hopes of cleaning up the threads, but reinstalling the nut and cap nut on the cut ends is still often frustrating.

I have not found a satisfactory way to cleanly cut SS machine screws or carriage bolts and just try to keep a length-appropriate assortment of machine screw/bolt in the shop, which becomes a really pricey solution.

Is there a shop trick to it?

I'm just careful with a hack saw., and a file to clean up any burs.

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

I get long SS bolts from McMaster Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-flat-head-screws

Alan

 

[Guest]

then go to the bench grinder and hold the bolt at a steep angle while spinning it. This removes the bur left from cutting and gives it a little cone shape on the end. It's not the best method but it's quick and I can almost always get a nut on. I'd probably have better luck if I could ever remember to put a nut on before cutting the bolt.

Hold the bolt at a steep angle while spinning it italics mine.

I’ve done the nuts (usually two) screwed on, careful hacksaw cut and file or grinder action. I overlooked the “at a steep angle” trick to leave a bit of cone end.

I never said I was all that smart, but I’m getting better informed. Something new to learn on the board every day.

 

[Cruiser]

Alan, I use SS carriage bolts as well, but have found that unless you go to at least 1/4", the length is usually limited to ~2" (say for 10-24). The 1/4" bolts are a lot of overkill, not to mention heavy .... in fact3/16" are probably overkill for purpose as well, but I wouldn't feel comfortable going any lighter.

After doing cleats on my last boat, i think that may be the way to go in the future for me. It provides a lot of weight saving opportunities and I kind of like the cleaner look it provides.

Ditto on just grinding the cut side of a thread, 45-60 degree grind and the bolts slip on very easily.

 

[Alan Gage]

Alan, I use SS carriage bolts as well, but have found that unless you go to at least 1/4", the length is usually limited to ~2" (say for 10-24

McMaster has 10-24 stainless up to 6 inches. Those are phillip head rather than carriage.

Their website doesn't allow direct linking to a product otherwise I'd give it.

Alan

 

[Guest]

McMaster has 10-24 stainless up to 6 inches. Those are phillip head rather than carriage.

I have not needed anything longer than 6 inches, excepting for the stern seat in a deep 20’ Prospector.

The last time I ordered from McMaster Carr I needed some commercial account number. Maybe you have one from the car shop? I had one from the University, but no longer.

I have ordered from the (near identical, think Toyota/Honda) Grainger catalog without commercial-user difficulty. (Caveat; this was weird stuff, like through-wall Motel-style 220 heat/AC units, not SS machine screws or carriage bolts).

I have been lucky with my long/odd stainless steel needs. There was an old-timey independent fastener company in the metro area, Leonard Jed. Staffed by a collection of even old time-ery wisened sales guys, accustomed to picking wholesale boxes of SS off the disorganized and unlabled dusty shelves.

Different spelling of MacRea’s Blue Book:

https://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/company.cfm?company=317863

When I went in with a stainless list of “8 four inch, 10 six inch ¾ machine screws, 20 washers and lock washers, 12 cap nuts, 12 this, 10 this, 20 that ” etc they would walk the dusty aisles to pick it out individually, which I appreciated as I followed along.

The best part was when I got up to the check out with the ancient Jed brothers. They would invariably start totaling up my 8 of these, 10 of these, 20 and 12 of these, 20 of these, give up, and say “How about $10 for the lot?”

I still have a lot of long Leonard Jed stainless steel machine screws.

Fortunately my local farm country hardware still carries an incredible selection of SS hardware. They are not as don’t-feel-like-adding-it-up cheap as Leonard Jed’s, and I honestly write down every cost and qualtity, but I have been able to replenish shop hardware.

There is now a Tractor Supply and a Home Depot within sight of their parking lot, and I fear for their continued existence. If I need 4 or 8 of something I buy 12, or 16. Or full boxes of washers and nuts.

When they are gone I will be one sorry driving into the big city fella.

 

[Alan Gage]

I have not needed anything longer than 6 inches, excepting for the stern seat in a deep 20’ Prospector.

The last time I ordered from McMaster Carr I needed some commercial account number. Maybe you have one from the car shop? I had one from the University, but no longer.

I've never been asked for a tax ID number or any sort of verification that I'm a business. At least for the things I've gotten from them they seem happy to sell to anyone. I've only ordered personal things from them so they don't know anything about the repair shop.

Alan

 

[sweeper]

Here's another great hardware site to compare. I've used them in my business for a few years now without a problem.

https://www.boltdepot.com/Catalog.aspx

 

[Jim Dodd]

While I'm at it, here's a pic of how I drill my hanger brackets ! I clamp everything in place, and use a long drill bit, so I can sight it, and see that it's in alignment.

 

[Cruiser]

Or ....live on the wild side and bypass the hangers all together

 

[Jim Dodd]

Those seats look well supported Brian.
I also like the width of the seat. It looks comfortable even when you need to heel the
hull a little !

Is that cord comfortable ?
And did you varnish it ?

Jim

 

[LanceR]

Oh Good Grief! Like I need any more techniques that I want to try!

Jim, do you use the same varnish on the nylon webbing as on the seat frame and canoe and if so, how heavy is each coat? How tight do you lace it prior to varnishing it?

And I think you had a seat back thread or two. Can you point me to them please?

I have a good bit of a large (1250'?) roll of white mil-spec 5/8" tubular nylon that is now old enough that it can't be used for climbing related stuff but would seem to be a natural for seats. I may just make up a practice frame or two and try this out.




Thanks,


Lance

 

[Jim Dodd]

Oh Good Grief! Like I need any more techniques that I want to try!

Jim, do you use the same varnish on the nylon webbing as on the seat frame and canoe and if so, how heavy is each coat? How tight do you lace it prior to varnishing it?

And I think you had a seat back thread or two. Can you point me to them please?

I have a good bit of a large (1250'?) roll of white mil-spec 5/8" tubular nylon that is now old enough that it can't be used for climbing related stuff but would seem to be a natural for seats. I may just make up a practice frame or two and try this out.

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Thanks,


Lance

That 5/8" Tubular Nylon cord would be ideal ! I'll bet the strength of the 5/8" is incredible. 1/2" is around 1400 #

Yes, I use the same varnish as on the seat frames, I really work the varnish into the nylon, with a foam brush ! Almost wearing it out. A little thinner might help soak the webbing. The webbing is dripping when I'm done.

Lace it loose ! So far I haven't laced one Too loose, but I did a couple Too tight.

That's a lot of seats there. Mine take about 50'.

Jim

 

[Jim Dodd]

Seats are easier to make than Paddles ! I make extra, when I get set up !
Jim