Magic spiff up

[Alan Gage]

Have you considered contacting System Three? I also have a couple of questions about general application conditions...

I sent them an e-mail last night. I'll be interested to hear what they have to say.

What were your approx. temp. (& humidity if you have it)?
Did you have to "Tip out" as a lot of the tutorials I have run across claim?

Don't know humidity but it's been pretty low here. Feels lower in the shop than outside most days. I'd guess around 60%. Shop temp has been hovering around 71.

It was all brush applied. Did a 2-3' section on one side of the boat and then the same size on the other side. Back and forth back and forth to keep a wet edge.

I suspect that the cross-linker does have a bit of a pot life, (otherwise, they would ship it mixed) and my reading of the data sheets says that it also reduces the open-coat time for applying more on top.

I thought about that too but figured I'd be safe if it was used the same day. Maybe not. I hope to find out. The directions on the can say 8 hour window between cross-linked coats but a big sticker on the lid says something about a new formulation and that you now have 24 hours between cross linked coats.

I originally reported 6 hours between coats but looking back on the time stamps of my photos I see that it was actually 9 hours. So over the limit according to the printed instructions on the can but well under according to the big sticker.

Thinned it a bit with water (it's thick) and crosslinked the final two coats

This surprises me a bit. My impression was that this was a rather thin finish to start with, though many recommend thinning it the max 20% the label allows for.

It's definitely thicker than oil based varnish and not something I'd want to try and brush apply without thinning. My label doesn't say that it can be thinned, it says that it must be thinned.

That sucks. Some thoughts. Use better masking tape, I like 3M. Pull it earlier, while the finish is wet. I lacked the confidence to recondition a recent carbon boat, and had a shop do it. They used West System epoxy. They said that was the resin in the original lay up. So far, so good.

It is good tape! Diamond Vogel. Some commercial painter friends of mine turned me onto it. They say they'll quit the business if Diamond Vogel ever stops making that tape. I agree that it would have been better to peel it off when wet and after I saw what was happening I ran a razor blade down the edge of the hull/gunwale and then it peeled off fine but it still doesn't seem like I should be able to separate layers of varnish.

At first I thought ALL the varnish was pulling off the hull and that I didn't get it sanded good enough in some spots. But the same thing happened in some sections that I knew were well sanded and what's underneath the peeled layer is very smooth and glossy, not a sanded hull. Pretty sure it's only the top layer of varnish but I could be wrong. The same tape was on for all 4 layers of varnish.

I'm really hoping that in a couple days it will harden up a bit more and not peel any longer. I guess I'll find out. The final coat isn't wet or sticky but something about it doesn't quite feel setup right. When running your hand over the hull instead of it feeling hard and slick it wants to grab your skin a little, but I can't dent or scratch it with my fingernail. What's underneath the peeled layer feels like I think the final layer should. Hard and slick.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Yikes! I would have freaked out.

About sticking with what’s proven to work - there are no lessons to be learned in that, and without some experimentation it is hard to discover firsthand what works better. And what doesn’t.

That's true. But it sure can be a frustrating process.

Thanks,

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Yesterday I took the boat outside to bake in the sun all afternoon. In the bright sunlight and with the boat right side up I got a better look at the peeled areas and it appears I was wrong. In fact it does seem to be all the layers of varnish peeling off the hull and not just the outer layer like I originally though. A couple of the areas I know I didn't sand thoroughly as they were near factory stickers that I wanted to leave in place. But on some of the other areas I can see the hull is well scuffed from sanding where the varnish has lifted.

I got a phone call from System 3 today and they think the problem was a result of me:

A: Not pulling the tape when the finish was still wet (this would mean pulling and reapplying for each coat)
B: Not running a razor blade down the tape seam before pulling if the finish had already dried.

After getting a better look at the peeled areas in the sun I'd have to agree with them.

All that being said I just went went out in the shop to pick and peel at the affected areas to see how much I could pull up. In the area near the sticker where I know I didn't sand I was able peel off quite a bit more. When it tore off I was unable to get me fingernail under the edge to lift any more. The hull looks glossy under this area.

In other areas I wasn't able to peel anything else before the loose tab broke off. But there were a couple areas where I was surprised at how much I was able to peel off and these appeared to be well sanded with a whitish colored hull and apparent swirl marks. Again, once the tab I was pulling on broke I couldn't get any more varnish to lift off the hull with a fingernail.

I guess I'm still a little leery of how well it adhered to the original finish but I don't have anything to use as a comparison. Maybe spar varnish would have done the same thing if I'd tried to remove tape from the gunwales a day after applying the final coat? Kind of makes me want to rig up an experiment to find out. For the time being I'm going to scuff the hull near the gunwales on the affected side and reapply a few more coats. On the other side I'll score the tape edge before pulling.

I'm not giving up on the WR-LPU yet but I am suspicious.

Alan

 

[sailsman63]

That's... frustrating. I was just about all set up to order some, now I'm dithering again. Interesting that they didn't seem to think having mixed cross-linker would be an issue. The thing with scoring the tape. does that mean the finish sticks to itself better than it does to other surfaces? Somewhat understandable, especially if the finish was still "Green" (You did note earlier that it takes two weeks to hit max strength)

Regarding Spar Varnish, the only version I have ever used was Minwax Helmsman, but that stuff would peel off of itself if the scuff job was not thorough enough. Never taped the gunwales, as they were ash and finished in exactly the same varnish, so I would just tip out any runs, and call it good.

 

[Guest]

I guess I'm still a little leery of how well it adhered to the original finish but I don't have anything to use as a comparison. Maybe spar varnish would have done the same thing if I'd tried to remove tape from the gunwales a day after applying the final coat? Kind of makes me want to rig up an experiment to find out.

If you have the time and material I’d be interested in the results of that experiment, using different scuffs, top coats, tape pull methods and cure times.

Please post results if you perform that experiment.

 

[Alan Gage]

So much for this being a quick and simple in and out project.

Yesterday it was time to peel the tape from the other side of the hull. I was curious if letting the finish cure longer would have any affect. It didn't. It seemed just as willing to peel with the tape. For experimentation purposes I didn't score the tape line with a razor blade first.

The original plan was to scuff up along the gunwales where it was peeling and add a couple more coats. But the more I sanded that area the more it kept peeling up. That made me mad so I said screw it and decided that if it wanted to come off that easy I'd just sand it all off and use Spar varnish instead. So I loaded up my super sander with 100 grit and went at it. That's when I found out this stuff is a lot tougher than I gave it credit for. I just kept sanding and sanding and it was taking a long time and a lot of sandpaper to get back down to the bare hull. Except for the couple inches along the gunwales it seemed to be stuck very, very, good.

So I changed my plan one more time and decided to give it a thorough sanding with 100, 120, and 180 (out of 150) grit. That should remove anything that wasn't stuck down real good and then I'd give it another 4 coats of the same WR-LPU. This time I made good and sure to sand well along the gunwales. Unfortunately there was no way to preserve the factory stickers when removing the varnish. Too bad since I'm leaning towards selling it. You can see there are areas where I got all the way through the varnish but on the vast majority of the hull I never did get through it all.

20150626_001 by Alan, on Flickr

At this point I'm going to take all the blame for the peeling problem. The only places it occurred is where it seems I didn't sand well enough before applying the finish. In hindsight I should have taped over the original stickers I wanted to save and sanded all around them. Instead I left them exposed and avoided them with sandpaper. Maybe this is more picky than spar varnish, I don't know. I'd still like to rig up a little test one of these days.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

You may be able to get new stickers from Bell ?

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

You may be able to get new stickers from Bell ?

Jim

Didn't think of that. Probably can't get Bell stickers since there is no "Bell" anymore but the Magic is back in production so maybe they'd at least part with a set of those.

Thanks!

Alan

 

[sailsman63]

That's when I found out this stuff is a lot tougher than I gave it credit for. I just kept sanding and sanding and it was taking a long time and a lot of sandpaper to get back down to the bare hull. Except for the couple inches along the gunwales it seemed to be stuck very, very, good.

(SNIP)
You can see there are areas where I got all the way through the varnish but on the vast majority of the hull I never did get through it all.

Maybe this is more picky than spar varnish, I don't know. I'd still like to rig up a little test one of these days.

Don't want to crow over someone else's frustration, but this sequence makes me feel a lot better about ordering some of the stuff myself... (and I'm about at the point where I need to place an order, unless I want to end up waiting for glass and epoxy. Do not want to end up placing two orders.

I also went back over one of the datasheets available, and SystemThree recommends using this over their own branded WR primer (gray color) if the underlying resin is not a SystemThree product.

the difficulty you had sanding through accords well with some others that recommended wet sanding while the finish was still green if you had to sand at all.

Wish I'd gotten some photos of putting Helmsman over Helmsman, and not sanding well enough first... That was ugly. And required more sanding in the end...

I'm still looking forward to the final results here.

Luke

 

[Guest]

Probably can't get Bell stickers since there is no "Bell

I had a couple of “Bell” stickers in the shop. “Had”, I just looked and looked and must have thrown them away in the last purge. If they turn up they’re yours.

 

[Alan Gage]

Round two of finishing went well and after scoring the tape with a razor blade everything peeled off fine. Five coats of WR-LPU, the last two crosslinked, with just a little left in the can. So definitely enough in a can do do the outside of two boats or the inside and outside of one boat with plenty to spare. Probably would have been ok with four coats but the first one went on really thin.

So now she's all put back together with new oil on the trim and up for sale. This is the first time I've listed a canoe for sale with butterflies in my stomach. I really like this boat a lot but I need to clear rack space and raise some money to help fund my upcoming trip. To be honest I haven't paddled it in nearly a year, ever since I built the Barracuda, because I've had lots of new boats to play with and the Barracuda has turned into my standard day tripper boat. This winter I hope to design and build something to replace the Magic though that will be an awfully tall order.

She sure looks good all cleaned up:

20150628_019 by Alan, on Flickr

20150628_014 by Alan, on Flickr

20150628_016 by Alan, on Flickr

20150628_018 by Alan, on Flickr

20150628_020 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan

 

[sailsman63]

Looking good. I'm now thinking I'm fully comfortable buying some of the WR-LPU for my current build.

I just noticed: The float spaces in the bow and stern seem rather small. Are they large enough to be of use?

 

[Alan Gage]

I just noticed: The float spaces in the bow and stern seem rather small. Are they large enough to be of use?

Guess that would depend on your definition of useful. They keep it from sinking but not a whole lot else, which is probably all that can be said for nearly all the float tanks I've seen.

Alan

 

[Bothwell Voyageur]

Looks good. I will likely try some of that WR-LPU for refinishing my Souris River at the end of this season.

 

[Alan Gage]

I haven't rested easy since I listed this boat for sale and cringe every time I check my e-mail for fear someone will buy it. I've taken it off the market. Looking forward to getting reacquainted with her.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Two questions.

Any idea what causes "Bell Blush"? Moisture and vinylester resin?

Interestingly enough my 2008 Bell Northstar (Magic is a 2003) shows no signs of blushing. The Magic was built when Ted Bell was still building them and the Northstar was built by ORC. Different resins perhaps? Judging from the finish on the inside of the Northstar it appears ORC was vacuum bagging the hulls while I believe Ted was using hand layup. Don't know if that has anything to do with it or not but the Northstar seems to have the weave more filled with resin.

Alan