Mad River Monarch

[yellowcanoe]

For you that own a Monarch.. I have the standard rudder but the dang thing ( yes I cursed) doesn't engage in the water enough to make much of a difference in resisting tidal currents.. Have any of you took out the whole mechanism where it attaches to the hull at the stern and dropped it an inch? And reattach there?

 

[Guest]

For you that own a Monarch.. I have the standard rudder but the dang thing ( yes I cursed) doesn't engage in the water enough to make much of a difference in resisting tidal currents.. Have any of you took out the whole mechanism where it attaches to the hull at the stern and dropped it an inch? And reattach there?

I have not been much bothered by the Monarch rudder’s performance in tidal currents, but I have very little ruddered sea kayak experience with which to compare.

I kinda doubt that dropping the Monarch rudder one inch is going to make a whopping lot of difference.

Waves whapping the rudder when it is “retracted” (the rudder only comes up to about a 45 / ) can be annoying. Having the rudder protruding that far past the stern even when retracted has been an issue in tighter spots and I have tangled it in bank brush and vines a few times. And of course the rudder is sticking out in fence grabbing mode during transport.

If I was going to tackle any serious rudder change on the Monarch I would remove it entirely and replace it with a Feathercraft style that would retract fully onto the back deck, and probably use a tandem sized blade.

That is what Jim Henry did with his personal Monarch.

 

[JoeWildlife]

No Title

Honestly I never thought much about Feathercraft "kayak" style rudders...my limited experience was with a Loon that had one, and it hummed all the time and wasn't particularly effective. Then I bought a Clipper Sea 1 with a Feathercraft on it, and promptly upgraded to the Tandem blade Mike mentions. I do like it, it works very well especially in combo with my Falcon sail rig. But back to Yellowcanoe's question... When I bought my Monarch from a mutual friend of Mike's, he made me promise I would upgrade the rudder to the Kruger Sea Wind design. I thought the dude was crazy, it worked fine I thought. And I paddled the Monarch quite a bit. Then I got a Sea Wind and realized although the rudders may look similar, the Kruger rudder was much better and really could turn the boat much better. Seeing no downside, I built a copy of the Kruger rudder and attached it with beefy grudgeons from Duckworks supply I think it was. So my point is, it may have to do more with the square footage of the rudder blade, not how far it is in the water. I guess I would recommend you just replace your rudder assembly. Verlen, Scott Smith, and Mark P. all have replaced many a Monarch rudder...so it isn't just me.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Thanks Joe O that is a good inch lower than my current assembly is attached..the rudder not engaging the water is mostly a problem on unloaded day trips in ocean rollers. We have ocean close by and paddle out of Freeport on those days.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Honestly I never thought much about Feathercraft "kayak" style rudders...my limited experience was with a Loon that had one, and it hummed all the time and wasn't particularly effective. Then I bought a Clipper Sea 1 with a Feathercraft on it, and promptly upgraded to the Tandem blade Mike mentions. I do like it, it works very well especially in combo with my Falcon sail rig. But back to Yellowcanoe's question... When I bought my Monarch from a mutual friend of Mike's, he made me promise I would upgrade the rudder to the Kruger Sea Wind design. I thought the dude was crazy, it worked fine I thought. And I paddled the Monarch quite a bit. Then I got a Sea Wind and realized although the rudders may look similar, the Kruger rudder was much better and really could turn the boat much better. Seeing no downside, I built a copy of the Kruger rudder and attached it with beefy grudgeons from Duckworks supply I think it was. So my point is, it may have to do more with the square footage of the rudder blade, not how far it is in the water. I guess I would recommend you just replace your rudder assembly. Verlen, Scott Smith, and Mark P. all have replaced many a Monarch rudder...so it isn't just me.

I m on the Duckworks site and dont quite know where to start. Pintles and gudgeons are new words to me.

 

[Guest]

Looking at the clearance between the retracted rudder and the deck of the Monarch there is less than ½ inch of space available to lower the brackets before the top curve of the retraced rudder would hit the deck

If you are thinking about installing a Feathercraft rudder I have, somewhere on-line, seen a variety of mounting brackets for a Feathercraft rudder housing, including brackets for | stern boats.

 

[yellowcanoe]

When my rudder retracts its straight up. I'll try and get back to the boat barn to confirm this. It pretty much assumes this position from Scotts Seawind pix

http://scottsboatpages.blogspot.com/2013/06/kruger-sea-wind-canoe.html. My whole assembly is an inch higher.

The problem is that one way-to the left it turns OK even when empty and the other not so much and the arms wimpy as they may be are parallel to the horizon. I get enough grab from the rudder one way but not the other.
Gudgeons, scutcheons and pintles O MY.. I thought gunwales thwarts axles and wedges were enough!

This may be a winter project cause I see a surgeon this week for carvery.. But the Monarch needs to be able to go in February.
We have confirmed the beauty of a travel trailer and two long boats works.

 

[Guest]

When my rudder retracts its straight up. I'll try and get back to the boat barn to confirm this.

I would love to see a photo of your retracted Monarch rudder to visualize how that near-vertical rudder position was accomplished.

On my Monarch, the friend’s I have worked in the shop and the other’s I have seen the rudder is nowhere near vertical when in the retraced position. I measured the angle on mine and it is pretty close to a 45, sticking out 12 inches past the stern even when fully retracted.

If I could figure out how to make that work I would prefer it be 90 degrees straight up, so I couldn’t back paddle the rudder into things

Really I’d prefer fully 180 degrees over and out of the way resting on the back deck, but sans springs or bungees I don’t see how that is possible with a single line gravity deployed rudder.

 

[coldfeet]

I
Really I’d prefer fully 180 degrees over and out of the way resting on the back deck, but sans springs or bungees I don’t see how that is possible with a single line gravity deployed rudder.

Mike, so how did those other guys do it? I'm interested in this topic. Thanks Haven't taken my Monarch out in a while, might be almost a year since an ADK outing I think on Lake Lila? or Lowes?

 

[yellowcanoe]

Mike, so how did those other guys do it? I'm interested in this topic. Thanks Haven't taken my Monarch out in a while, might be almost a year since an ADK outing I think on Lake Lila? or Lowes?

Oooh that's boat abuse!
It needs water big water. Mine got out 25 days. Not that much. Going to FL for 3 weeks in Feb
The unhurricaned coast

 

[Guest]

Mike, so how did those other guys do it? I'm interested in this topic.

I’m not sure which “other guys” you mean.

For a Kruger-type rudder if you look at the Scotts Boat Pages blog link in this thread you’ll see that the retracted rudder is near vertical (but there is still a lot of rudder blade out behind the stern).

If you look at the top of your Monarch rudder you will see some Dr. Seuss curve, a double curve with a concave bit that fits atop the stern deck. Those top curves, and the attachment point of the single rudder retraction line work to limit how near vertical the rudder can be raised.

If you mean how a Feathercraft or etc type rudder retracts fully 270 degrees to rest flat on the back deck the mechanism gets trickier. A continuous loop of line runs through a pulley wheel on the rudder housing. That line loop can be pulled to raise the rudder and flip it over onto the back deck, or pulled to engage the rudder fully deployed.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vid...ei=yiH9V4SWC4i1etjcm7AM#imgrc=1qNKAjRjbozHTM:

As much as I prefer a Feathercraft-type rudder I’m not planning on replacing the OEM on the Monarch anytime soon, although if I lose control of it again when putting it on the roof racks in high wind I might need to. Bending that control arm back into shape wsn’t easy.

 

[JoeWildlife]

No Title

yellowcanoe, here is the link. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/p-g/canoe/index.htm

​Canoe/kayak Rudder Gudgeons. Fancy word for hinges! The trick is to find an appropriately sized stainless hinge, that is all. These worked for me, after I shortened them considerably. Verlen Kruger used stainless cabinet hinges, and a stainless steel welding rod for the pin. The idea that the pin would break or bend before anything breaks. I made mine with a 1/4" stainless steel bolt, so obviously subscribe to a different idea on that. That is my red/white Monarch rudder I speak of. I made a rudder for the green/white Loon with a regular door hinge, one side inserted into the stern of the boat and bolted in "split stern" style, the same way as the original rudder was installed. The Sea Wind has the OEM Verlen Kruger rudder.

 

[TheIndian]

Nice tilted sedimentary layers! I think I see an unconformity in there somewhere too! Cool stuff haha
Wow Coldfeet...I never saw a thread this long LOL. Time to sail the Monarch again?

 

[JoeWildlife]

This is a great thread...talks about various Kruger boats, Clipper Sea 1, and other decked canoes/kayak conversions. And sails! And Rudders! I think it was what, the Spirit sail that is no longer with us. I found out recently that the proprietor of the FEKS sails passed away. But if you want what I consider the best "real" sail system out there(vs. a parachute or V sail) , for canoe or kayak sails check out www.falconsails.com Tell Patrick I sent you and he might throw in some bling for you! There is no better feeling than knocking out the miles with a good wind when using a good sail. My best memory of the first Everglades Challenge was a day on the Joe River watching the miles fall away under the power of a Falcon 1M sail on my Sea Wind.

 

[coldfeet]

I'm going paddling out tomorrow and my poor Monarch was not chosen for this paddle, sadly. Temps will be app 15f with wind chills in single digits. I had to choose a boat with more wind protection. Paddling around Kennedy airport and into Brookyln! Yo Brooklyn!

 

[Boatman53]

Be careful out there!
Jim

 

[yellowcanoe]

No Title

It's way overdue. The alibi that the boat is frozen in is old and untrue now
Pics show the rudder when up is a tail of 45 degrees. That doesn't bug me
What does is that when let go almost nothing of the rudder is in the water. It's mounted pretty high to my naive eyes
Thoughts?
The rivets were taken out so the mounting isn't in proper place quite

Not sure why the site rotates photos from my phone but the phone is easier to take pics of while holding the rudder line

I sea that the rudder Joe made is longer and starts further aft, which may be a clue as to why it works better

 

[Alan Gage]

Not sure why the site rotates photos from my phone

The problem is more likely that the site doesn't rotate photos from your phone. There is only one true 'up' but your phone is smart enough to detect which direction your camera is oriented and adds that tidbit of information to the photo's file so that when the phone shows you the image later on it can place the photo in the 'correct' orientation. But I'm guessing the forum software doesn't know how to read that little tidbit of information embedded in the picture's file and instead gives you the 'real' image as you took it.

The fix would be to edit the image orientation in a simple windows based photo viewer that talks the same language as the forum software. Pretty much anything should do the trick.

Alan

 

[yellowcanoe]

Ssh. Apple vs windows.
Kind of like single vs double

 

[Guest]

Pics show the rudder when up is a tail of 45 degrees. That doesn't bug me
What does is that when let go almost nothing of the rudder is in the water. It's mounted pretty high to my naive eyes
Thoughts?
The rivets were taken out so the mounting isn't in proper place quite

I sea that the rudder Joe made is longer and starts further aft, which may be a clue as to why it works better

Thoughts.

The rudder is in the same location vertically on the stem as factory installed, but the housing in tilted upwards a bit, which probably has more effect on the blade position in the water when deployed.

If you don’t want to remove and reattach the entire thing the easiest solution would be to cut a new, longer rudder. As long as the Dr. Seuss curved shape at the top of the blade is the same it will retract/deploy in the same way.

Cutting a new rudder is easy; electric jig saw, metal cutting blade and some sandpaper to take off the burrs.

Finding a piece of aluminum thick enough has stymied me. The Monarch rudder is considerably thicker aluminum than typical highway sign material, which will wobble some in the water. If you find a reasonably priced source for such thickness aluminum please let me know.

The other alternative, which would appeal to me for the inherent advantages, is to remove the rudder entirely and replace it with a modern rudder like a Feathercraft using a longer tandem blade. A rudder that retract 270 degrees to lay in a rudder rest on the back deck would be advantageous; no waves whapping that the / “retracted” blade, less chance of backing into something whether afloat or on the roof racks, etc. That is what was on Jim Henry’s personal Monarch when he sold it, so the idea has merit.

If that isn’t something you want to tackle at home maybe ask a competent boat shop like BMO how much to replace the rudder. And maybe the crude foot pedal assembly as well, using something easier to adjust like Yakima/Werner now-Mohawk rudder pedals.

Adjusting the pedal position on the OEM Monarch pedals is such a PITA that the boat essentially fits one size person and no one taller or shorter.

(BTW, some version of the pedal adjustable Harmony slider/pedal assembly fits perfectly into the Monarch track. That is what I have installed on my Monarch so shorties like Joel can reach the pedals)