Live aboard motor canoe project

[Guest]

Yep it was the lean to the left then more lean to the left with the motor running.
He said it was rather ....interesting as in frightful.

Probably not as frightful as taking the 17 foot MRC Revelation around Cape Sable in heavy quartering wind and wave with a kayak ama bouncing around, hoping like heck everything held together and wishing he was in a sea kayak. Ask him about that adventure next winter when you find him in the Everglades.

Any plans to build a stripper square stern live aboard?

Do not even go there. No.
No, no, no. No DIY builds.

I regret passing on a couple of 17 foot Grumman square sterns that appeared when we first headed down the motor canoe avenue. A unicorn 20 footer would be great for the live aboard platform, but perfection is the enemy of the good, or the good enough.

A solo motorman in a square stern Grumman 17 would have plenty of gear space. No tilty side mount motor weight, less tilty prop action. Pack that hull with solo trim comfort gear, drive it up on some sandy beach and call it good.

A Y stern would work, if a sea kindly enough design. A smallish Grand Laker would work even better if it fit on the trailer. The 21 foot X 42 inches wide composite MRC Grand Laker might just barely fit on the crossbars. Or, going solo shorter, what was the smaller MRC Grand Laker design model called?

Lots of hull possibilities out there, we just need to keep looking.

mike you.need to be bow paddler

I much enjoyed my time as experimental bowman in the motorized MRC Revelation, and have not had that petrol pleasure in the Miramichi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPErEihIaes

I remain hopeful about passenger bow riding in the motorized Miramichi with a load of comfort camping gear, maybe this summer in Maine. Lots of big lake motor canoe possibilities up there. Joel could go off for a hike and leave me all alone as usual.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Sorry. Dam phone. Posts don

 

[yellowcanoe]

often go through

 

[yellowcanoe]

Without getting amputated

 

[yellowcanoe]

Sorry for the Burma Shave method

 

[deerfly]

very cool project, wish I saw this sooner. Spent most of my formative years running all over the glades from Marco to key largo. Started in mid 60's with my dad and grandfather. Lots of nights spent in 13 whaler, john boats and even canoes a time or two. Most of the time on purpose, but quite a few times after being lost. This was before GPS. Noodling around in a small shallow draft boat and sleeping onboard is a great way to explore the glades tho. I agree with Joel too, can't get far enough away from people sometimes. Hard to take it all in with boot scootin boogie blasting in your ears at camp until 2am. IMO GPS has ruined it, too easy for too many to get into places they'd never get in or out without it. Very difficult to find solitude out there anymore.

Anyway, looking forward to the trip report too...

 

[lowangle al]

Navigating by map and compass was pretty interesting in the mangroves, and essential. If I recall magnetic and true north were about the same, luckily.

 

[memaquay]

So is he still using the Suzuki motor? What kind of top speed has he made? I can cruise at 12 to 13 k an hour with just bow weight in the square stern. The stripper doesn't oil can, but going into waves at 13 k an hour makes it slap pretty hard, i Usually back it off. You know, when I retire, I might just build a really big square stern. Or maybe take a trip to the states and build one at some dudes place, if there was no hippy beer involved, just plane Jane Bud Light, the working man's beer.

 

[Guest]

So is he still using the Suzuki motor? What kind of top speed has he made? I can cruise at 12 to 13 k an hour with just bow weight in the square stern. The stripper doesn't oil can, but going into waves at 13 k an hour makes it slap pretty hard, i Usually back it off. You know, when I retire, I might just build a really big square stern. Or maybe take a trip to the states and build one at some dudes place, if there was no hippy beer involved, just plane Jane Bud Light, the working man's beer.

Joel is a map and memory guy and does not use a GPS, even in the Everglades, so no idea about top speed. I think he usually runs the little Suzuki at no more than half throttle.

I think there is some place around here that sells Bud Light, I have never looked. Or at least have always averted my gaze.

I have faith that the continuation of this project will be a used square stern Grumman.

 

[Guest]

The 21 foot X 42 inches wide composite MRC Grand Laker might just barely fit on the crossbars. Or, going solo shorter, what was the smaller MRC Grand Laker design model called?

That Mad River mini Grand Laker was the square stern Champlain. 15 foot 11 inches, 38 inch gunwales, 15 inches deep, 1250 lb capacity at 6 inch waterline. 69 lbs in expedition kevlar.

Talk about searching for a unicorn.

 

[memaquay]

If you want the cadillac, here it is: http://abitibico.ca/en/products/canoes?filter[]=cargo&q= Scroll to the Hudson Bay 21. This is a massive platform, in fiberglass. I had it's "little" sister, the Albany 18'4". That canoe got me through hurricanes with a little 3 horse. These are very hardy canoes, built to survive the north, and they sometimes come up second hand. You want me to keep my eyes open?

 

[gumpus]

Regarding the "turns left" issue, the engineer in me has to comment that you may want to try to scoot the motor mount towards the stern to get the motor weight closer to centerline or better yet hang something of equal weight off the other side. Trying to offset the motor weight by loading the boat heavily towards the other side is likely to make the boat twist (torsion) and feel more noodly.

Regarding the links below, for some reason a bunch of used square sterns popped up not far from me. If you want to drive up with your trailer you're welcome to stay overnight with us in St Joseph. Offhand I suggest that you leave immediately.

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/boa/d/grumman-17-square-stern-canoe/6514443517.html

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/boa/d/19-grumman-square-stern-canoe/6478869306.html
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[Guest]

If you want the cadillac, here it is: http://abitibico.ca/en/products/canoes?filter[]=cargo&q= Scroll to the Hudson Bay 21. This is a massive platform, in fiberglass. I had it's "little" sister, the Albany 18'4". That canoe got me through hurricanes with a little 3 horse. These are very hardy canoes, built to survive the north, and they sometimes come up second hand. You want me to keep my eyes open?

Those do look cool, and seaworthy, but Massive and Cadillac is apt. The Hudson Bay is 56 inches wide, and weighs 260 lbs. Even the smaller Albany would be too wide for canoe trailer transport at 50 inches, and it weighs 195 lbs.

The 40 inch wide Miramichi barely fits on the trailer crossbars, and at 105 lbs I never wanted to pick it up again and move it, especially solo.

Are those usually towed on a single boat trailer and backed down a ramp? My back hurts just thinking about getting them on and off any kind of racks, storage or travel.

I appreciate the eyes open offer. We will eventually find an inexpensive square stern Grumman, fingers crossed a 20 footer.

 

[gumpus]

Two more

https://racine.craigslist.org/boa/d/canoe/6476185676.html

https://southbend.craigslist.org/boa/d/canoe-sailboat/6486607436.html

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[Guest]

If that Grumman 19 footer, what I keep calling a 20, was $500 I might be making a road trip to Milwaukee.

https://www.paddleva.com/grumman-canoes-grumman-19-square-stern-050-canoenatural-aluminum-finish

I think that big Grumman square stern is the Everglades motor canoe solution, and the live aboard platform and gear would fit with little adaptation needed.

Joel travels enough, Florida to Maine, and out west regularly, that a 19 foot square stern may eventually come up along his route.

 

[gumpus]

The Grumman 19 does seem like a lot of boat for the money. I read that they are now 0.050 thickness like they were in the 1950's...I wonder if the new ones are made as well as the old ones. I thought of you when I saw the craigslist ad and in fact I've recently seen a "wanted" ad for a Grumman 19 too.

Here's one more that you may like.

https://www.osagian.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1

 

[Guest]

Motor Canoe Mark III, (or good things come to those who wait)

The Mark I version, using the 2.5 HP Suzuki on a 17 foot MRC Revelation with sea kayak outrigger, motored along nicely at half throttle, but the hull lacked enough width for live aboard capacity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPErEihIaes

The 20 foot Esquif Miramichi nicely accommodated the tent platform, gear, food barrel, cooking area and toilet facilities.

PC090072 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

But even on that 40 inch wide behemoth the side mounted engine weighed awkwardly heavy, and the conclusion was that a big square stern Grumman 19 was the best option. Rare as hens teeth despite a couple years of searching.

In a case of massive serendipity Joel, in town for only a few days, saw a Craigslist ad for an Esquif Cargo in T-Formex. 20 minutes up the road from my home. I had seen that ad, but never looked up the specs on the 17 foot square stern Cargo

http://www.esquif.com/en/sporting/cargo/

I had no idea that Esquif made 6 different square sterns, including three Rangeley models.

Except having 3 feet lopped off the stern the Cargo is very similar to the Miramichi. Same 3 inch rocker in the bow and same 16 inch center depth, but a couple inches wider. The Miramichi has a hint of tumblehome on the sides, the Cargo has an inch or so of flare. The extra width can only help with the tent platform and the flare with motor use in waves.

A very well made canoe with a stout transom. Done deal; little used, at a more than reasonable 3 digit price.

More than reasonable; the owner threw in a small, high quality dry bag, four mediocre paddles and two better ones, a really nice boat cart and a manufactured T bar for a hitch receiver, all likewise in little used condition. And he was a really nice guy.

This was the first T Formex canoe I have really inspected and I am impressed. The T Formex outer skin seems stiffer and shinier than the vinyl on Royalex.

The Cargo is some modern camo pattern. Both inside and out. Perhaps that will slowly grow on me, like moss on an old oak.

I am looking forward to getting the Cargo into the shop this fall for Live Aboard Mark III. Most of the necessary work, platform and stabilizer floats and end stake mud/sand poles is already done and easily transferable.

Maybe this time the Cargo gets the big Pacific Action Sail installed with solo sailor sheets & fairleads and the Spring Creek leeboard. No rudder, I expect in a sailing tailwind Joel could just run the motor at low throttle and breeze along quite speedily.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPErEihIaes

!! Somehow, I had completely missed or forgotten your application of the sea kayak ama. Now I know what I can do with that Perception Sonoma that nobody seems to want to buy.

 

[Guest]

!! Somehow, I had completely missed or forgotten your application of the sea kayak ama. Now I know what I can do with that Perception Sonoma that nobody seems to want to buy.

Steve, that Mark I Motor Canoe with aka & ama rig worked very well and offered several advantages. The concept was to motor to a distant camp while carrying a sea kayak ama that could be used for daytrip explorations further afield

With the sea kayak outrigger attached the weight of the motor did not cock the hull over to the left, and the sea kayak ama helped with any prop spin vortex further tilting the hull.

Into the wind in that video on the upper Conowingo Pool we were cruising right along at half throttle. Fast enough into the breeze I was freezing up front with a lightweight shirt wind billowed out, kinda like the need to overdress for the jetboat ride up from Spanish Bottom.

The downsides to that sea kayak outrigger outfitting:

The short shaft Suzuki, used flat with an across the gunwales with side motor mount, did not position the prop below the bottom of the hull.
With prop wash hitting the side of the hull right turn steering was compromised.
It was a time consuming process to set everything up at a launch.
It was the devil to drag up both the canoe and kayak outrigger onto even a sandy beach handing.
Out around Cape Sable in wind and wave there some atheist prayers were muttered that the thing would hold together. Not appropriate for that kind of exposed Gulf of Mexico challenge.

With those flaws revealed I still believe that sea kayak outrigger system still has merit to provide a non-motorized day use boat in more benign conditions.

Next up, we tried the Motor Canoe Mark II; a 20 foot long x 40 inch wide Miramichi. That hull held promise for the long-dreamt live-aboard application. The cunning adjustable height motor mount held the prop below the bottom of the hull, with the cavitation plate properly positioned:

PC060057 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

But the weight of the motor, combined with the uber sturdy welded aluminum-stock side mount, did the weight distribution hull-tilt no favors.

PC010041 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That much weight, in motor and mount, hung off the side of the canoe, was an issue.

Double ender lessons learned:
With a horizontal side mount a long shaft is necessary to get the prop positioned below the hull, and the lighter the motor the better.
The gas sipping, less-polluting 4-stroke Suzuki is 29 lbs, is awkwardly heavier than a stink belching oil slick 2 stroke.
In sea grass areas the hull parted the vegetation off to the side, fouling the prop.

In any case, a square stern, or Y stern, is the way to go with a motor canoe. Like, I dunno, maybe something actually designed to accommodate a gas motor.

 

[ppine]

Remiinds me of the freight canoes on the Yukon River lashed together with wall tents on them.

I have mentioned before an idea that was hatched late one night in Washington State when meeting with my brothers and cousins.
Three canoes lashed together about 6-8 feet apart with poles. Then a plywood deck, a mast and lawn chairs. One outboard on the middle boat about 6 hp. A small sail.

The plan was to use it on Roosevelt Lake, WA which is 180 miles long behind Grand Coulee Dam on the Columbia River.