Learning the 17' Wenonah Advantage

[yellowcanoe]

Tipping the boat toward one side is heeling also sometimes called edging
The term leaning is avoided since people assume that they lean their bodies. They don't. Torso erect and parallel to upright tree trunks.

 

[Alan Gage]

I am sitting with knees propped just under the gunnels and with the seat as far forward as it will go.

I've never found the need to have an adjustable seat up that far. But depending on seat placement maybe it is the right spot for you. Maybe a fellow paddler can look at the boat on the water with you sitting it in and tell you what the trim looks like. It should look the same on bow and stern.

With the seat too far forward the stern will feel loose and if the canoe veers a little too far left or right it's difficult to get it back. Bow heavy paddling upstream is very difficult as the current really grabs the sticky bow.

Play around as you start putting miles on the hull and it won't take long to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Heeling (originally a sailboat term) = leaning, tipping the hull (up to the gunwales if possible) while keeping your torso vertical.

Stern sliding or skidding = how a fast moving car turns on ice or a wheelbarrow turns. The front stays relatively in place as a pivot point while the back skids or sweeps wide across the surface.

In this video Marc Ornstein explains a lot about paddling by using a canoe on land. In the second half beginning at about 5:05, he demonstrates stern sliding and how stern sliding can be enhanced by heeling the hull and by lightening the stern (by weighting the bow).

In this video the paddler is radically heeling a wide tandem canoe to use the "side rocker" formed by the heel. The ends (= stems) of the canoe lift out of the water because of the heel, thereby shortening the waterline and reducing the water resistance to the turn. He is using a bow jam = running bow pry = bow wedge (there's a lot of lingo in canoeing) to enhance his off-side turn. Watch the stern. You will see the slide pattern the stern forms on the water during a turn.

Here is Karen Knight performing all sorts of turns with a fully heeled hull. Again, watch the stern skid patterns. To see a radical example of how lightening the stern will assist stern slide turning, watch what happens when Karen moves all the way into the bow at about 2:20 in the video.

Karen and Marc are both multiple time national freestyle champions as well as whitewater boaters. If you can turn your Advantage like they can turn their canoes, you will win the first ever Newton-Knight-Ornstein Trophy.

 

[Mason]

As you've purchased a detuned race boat, and I doubt you'll be kneeling in the bilges as the freestyle canoeists do in the previous vids, here's another vid of racers making a turn using subtle leans (heeling) and not using correction strokes, which slow you down. The lean is most noticeable in the first two boats. Especially evident in the third boat, they enter the turn paddling on opposite sides, which makes the boat go straight. Then the stern paddler switches, and both are paddling on the same side, which initiates the turn. They heel the boat slightly to the outside (it's almost like just allowing the boat to tip a bit), and you can see the stern slew around a bit. For solo paddling, the principles are the same--one extra stroke on one side (or a sweep if needed), and the boat starts the turn. Heeling the boat to the outside of the turn will allow the stern to slew around, tightening the turn. To end the turn, simply switch sides and continue paddling--it'll take a few strokes to straighten you up, but you maintain a lot of your momentum. As Alan mentioned, it's a lot of fun timing your turns and not breaking a forward rhythm. Oh and in the video, you don't have to paddle that fast!

 

[yellowcanoe]

Its unrealistic to turn an Advantage as easily or as far as KK MO or even me in a symmetrically rockered boat with at least some rocker. But the same principles prevail. Just look at the initiation and the completion of the turn and ignore the extreme heel and the complete u turn.
Mason no solo video?

 

[Mason]

Mason no solo video?

Pretty slim pickings in youtube land. There's a very short piece in a Wenonah video that exactly shows the heeling of a Prism solo and how the stern slews around.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Erica indicated she didn't understand either the terminology or principles, or both, of stern slide turns and hull heeling. My videos were chosen to illustrate how turns are caused by stern sliding and, further, to show how hull heeling and unweighting the stern can enhance a turn -- for the benefit of Erica and any future readers.

We've all said that a zero rocker, tumblehome hull is the most difficult to heel and stern slide, and that switch paddlers of flat water racing canoes usually turn by slight anticipatory heels to the outside of the turn. However, the principles are the same. If the paddler moves forward and heels more aggressively the canoe will turn turn in a tighter radius, but there are limits to the ability to do this in a FWR hull.

 

[Erica]

Thanks again. I will study the videos. I do know how to move the canoe...I just don't know what word refers to what movement and now I can see with your helpful descriptions and the videos. I "lean" or "heel" with my body straight. Know how to do that from white water. And I wan't sure what skipping meant, although I understand the concept of getting the stems out of the water for turns. If it isn't too cold or windy this weekend, I'll try to get out on a larger body of water where I can better practice some of these moves. The fun here, for me, is learning so much about canoeing by paddling a very different boat. I really appreciate the comments and help.
Erica

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I "lean" or "heel" with my body straight. Know how to do that from white water.

I was a competent whitewater canoeist before I was a competent flat water canoeist. I never heard the word "heel" in the whitewater community in the 70's-90's. We used "lean" or "J-lean" or "lower body lean". The word "heel" seems to have been popularized by the flat water freestyle community in the 90's. Kayakers, especially sea kayakers, began using the term "edging" to describe J-leaning or heeling.

All the heeling I learned and used during my whitewater days was to the inside of the turn -- what we called "pivot turns" but which freestylers and other members of the flat water community now call "axle turns". Except for a few whitewater racers in (then rare) sharp chined canoes, no whitewater boaters turned while heeling to the outside of the turn -- what we called "carved turns" but which freestylers now call "post turns".

It came as very strange news to me that many canoeists in flat water touring canoes turned by heeling to the outside of the turn. It was only hammered into my head when I took up sea kayaking, but even then I preferred sea kayaks that could easily be axle turned, like my whitewater boats.

While I tried to be objective in answering yes as to whether a zero rocker, sit & switch, tumblehomed racing canoe would be suitable for Florida waters -- and I certainly do believe that as a factual matter -- my personal opinion and preference is that I don't like those kinds of CanAm canoes or the sit & switch style. Switch, switch, switch. Kerchunk, kerchunk, kerchunk. Boring, boring, boring. I'd rather be doing gimbal turns on a head spring, spinning around to go backwards under logs on the Blackwater, and doing eddy turns on the Alafia.

Keep us informed of your adventures in paradise.

 

[daveo4]

Kayak Kens recommendation is a good one I have a similar set up in my canoe.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Kayak Kens recommendation is a good one I have a similar set up in my canoe.

Me too but I use CVCA pads

http://www.rutabaga.com/chosen-valley-canoe-accessories-drill-on-yoke-pads

I dont want anything on the back of my neck.. Personal preference

 

[Guest]

You might be able to enhance your stability in the boat by fashioning some knee bumpers out of closed cell foam and shaping them to fit the outside contour of your knees. These can be glued to the sides of the hull just below the gunwales and can make it more comfortable to lock your knees when you heel the boat.

Second the addition of minicel knee bumpers. Not only for comfort but to help adjust the width to your most efficient knee and leg spread.

Those can be as simple as some Walmart minicel yoga blocks contact cemented below the inwales. These still need to be custom carved to fit the particular paddlers knee and leg placement

PC180162 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Unless you plan to undertake lengthy portages a strap yoke as in the photo above is also handy.

There are a lot of easy outfitting touches that can make a canoe more comfortable, efficient and safe. Tie down points, D rings, painter bungee, paddle keeps. Most of that, including materials and installation techniques, is here

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...35-mad-river-freedom-solo-outfitting-marathon

 

[Guest]

More customized knee bumpers

Giant white minicel knee bumpers in the wideride soloized Penobscot. Those are designed so that I can press my knees and upper calfs against them on high, or tuck my knees and thighs underneath. The Penobscot is a big, wide canoe to solo, and I need all the help I can get to horse it around at will while seated.

http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/C...ys/P8252240_zps527e875c.jpg.html?sort=2&o=177

I did not need extra knee bumper depth in the stern seat of the Cronje paddled in tandem guise.

http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/C...ays/P8122130_zps7a1659e6.jpg.html?sort=2&o=61

I do not paddle tandem. Bow backwards in that same canoe I needed some minicel depth, and some filler, to comfortably spread my knees against the sides.

http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/C...ys/P8242234_zps3dcc77f8.jpg.html?sort=2&o=171

Some shallow custom carving on one of the 70s decked boats cockpit coming. I sail my ruddered boats whenever possible, and that minicel cushion makes minor hiking out weight shifts more comfortable.

http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/C...ys/P8252242_zps56990569.jpg.html?sort=2&o=179

Each set of minicel knee bumpers was custom carved a little differently, depending on boat length and width, seat height and placement, and etc.

Mohawk Odyssey 14. Those, small and simple as they are, are a perfect fit.

http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/C...ys/P8252247_zps304a579f.jpg.html?sort=2&o=184

Seat to thwart length knee bumpers on a Wenonah Wilderness with adjustable height seat, incorporating a full length undercut bottom to facilitate locking the knees below the minicel in any position and any height paddler.

http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/C...ys/P8252248_zps2e2853c2.jpg.html?sort=2&o=185

Yeah, I do love me some minicel knee bumpers. Next to nothing weight added. Contact cement simple to install. Side shifting weight while locked in efficient, and so much more comfortable than a naked inwale edge against the knee.

Every single boat. Maybe I am just a knee comfort wimp.

 

[Erica]

Second the addition of minicel knee bumpers. Not only for comfort but to help adjust the width to your most efficient knee and leg spread.

Those can be as simple as some Walmart minicel yoga blocks contact cemented below the inwales. These still need to be custom carved to fit the particular paddlers knee and leg placement

PC180162 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Unless you plan to undertake lengthy portages a strap yoke as in the photo above is also handy.

There are a lot of easy outfitting touches that can make a canoe more comfortable, efficient and safe. Tie down points, D rings, painter bungee, paddle keeps. Most of that, including materials and installation techniques, is here

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...35-mad-river-freedom-solo-outfitting-marathon

Who is Cooper McCrea? I have a grandson named Cooper and have never known anyone else with that name.

Thank you for all the interesting pictures and the outfitting thread which I read with great interest and amusement. Were I to try to do all that, I would be too exhausted to go canoeing! On my long trips, I certainly saw how handy many of these adaptations would be, but never got around to any of them except knee straps for white water. Clearly you have a gift for this.

I did get out on the water today. Chilly and windy....and I was clearly over my head, though managed not to dump. I clearly have a lot more to learn...better to return again on a calm and warmer day.

Erica

 

[Guest]

Who is Cooper McCrea? I have a grandson named Cooper and have never known anyone else with that name.

Cooper is my younger son. He manages my photo sharing accounts because his father is too stupid to learn how to add photos to albums.

His name is the consequence of having an older brother named Tyler. We narrowed Coopers name criteria down to a two syllable trade or craft name ending in er. My wife did not like Plumber or Welder, Butcher was out because she is vegetarian, and Drywallhanger had too many syllables.

Were I to try to do all that, I would be too exhausted to go canoeing! On my long trips, I certainly saw how handy many of these adaptations would be, but never got around to any of them except knee straps for white water.

Comfort is important to me even on day trips.

I encourage you to add knee bumpers to the Advantage. Given the narrow gunwale width that is likely as simple as a Walmart Yoga Block contact cemented immediately below each inwale where your knees rest, and is a simply an outfitting task as exists.

If you are unsure about that permanent installation just duct tape the yoga blocks in place and try a test paddle.

Yoga blocks would provide a minicel cushion 9 inches long x 6 inches tall, extending out 3 inches on each side for more comfortable knee spread and points of contact.

Sit in the canoe and mark the gunwales for where your knees rest.
Alcohol clean the inside of hull below that mark
Center a yoga block below the inwale on that mark and pencil trace around the perimeter on the hull.
Tape around that pencil marked box on the sides and bottom.
Apply a coat of red can DAP Weldwood contact cement to one side of each yoga block, and inside the taped box on the hull.
Apply a second coat to the yoga block once it dries, ie a surprisingly few minutes later.
Apply a third coat to the yoga block once it again has dried, ie a more few minutes later.
Pull the tape.
OPTIONAL, hit both surfaces, hull and yoga block, with a heat gun or hair drier.
Aiming carefully, press the yoga block to the contact cement rectangle on hull. Adhesion is instantaneous.
OPTIONAL, clamp the yoga blocks to the hull for several hours or a day.
OPTIONAL, run a bead of Amazing Plumbers Goop around the perimeter of the mincel to hull edge the next day. I do not know about goopy Plumbing uses, but that adhesive sealant stuff really is amazing at preventing water, sand and grit infiltration, and edge lift, with contact cemented minicel.
INCREMENTALLY OPTIONAL, carve the knee surface of that minicel down to a custom knee fit. 80 grit or lower sandpaper will do so slowly, a piece of drywall sanding sheet is faster and easier.

Yoga Blocks, 2.97 each
DAP Weldwood contact cement, 5 bucks for a way more than enough 16 oz can.
Disposable 1 inch chip brush, fifty cents.
30 minutes work.
12 bucks.
Increased comfort and control, priceless.

A simple strap yoke from Mohawk, complete with all parts and instructions, will facilitate short carries and requires only a 3 16 inch drill, screwdriver and wrench. A drill two holes simple 30 minute job.

https://www.mohawkcanoes.com/collections/seats-yokes-and-thwarts/products/webbing-yoke

And a DIY Velcro spare paddle shaft keeper. Cut a length of double sided Velcro sized to fit around the paddle shaft, cut another length to wrap over that around the front thwart. Put the shaft Velcro under the thwart Velcro. Done in 60 seconds. Do not run with scissors.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/VELCRO-Brand-VELCRO-Brand-One-Wrap-Reusable-Adhesive-Strap/19535849

And OK I will stop now, before we get into how to install painter keeper bungee on a wee winky Wenonah deck cap.