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Laminating seat frames

OK then, it's the marketing people at lumberyards responsible for the confusion... quick wiki shows yellow poplar is also sold as tulip wood, which is less confusing since the tree it comes from is called tulip tree at least here in Ontario. Tulip trees are in the magnolia family, poplars and aspens (all are Populus species) are in the willow family.

Tulip wood must be quite different from true poplar wood since they're not even closely related (not related by species, genus or even family, like comparing a maple or an oak to a poplar)... I've read that Ray Kettlewell used tulip wood for a paddlemaking course he was giving in Algonquin park. Said to be very easy to work and a paddle could be made quickly from it.
 
Probably the most respected laminated seats are Conk seats. They use Basswood and ash as the laminates. What I'm pointing out is, Poplar and basswood are similar and have the same weight per Cu,Ft but poplar has about a 20% higher strength rating. I wouldn't say Conk uses basswood for it's strength, It's a filler to cut down on weight. So why wouldn't you substitute something the same weight and have more strength. My plan is to use the extra strength of the poplar combined with Douglass Fir which is not quite as strong as Ash but Is lighter. Combined weights of ash and basswood are 70# with a strength of 23,700. Weights of Poplar and Douglass Fir are 60# with a strength of 22,500. Probably splitting hairs but if your goal is to make a lighter seat the Poplar and fir combination is the lighter choice with almost the same strength.
 
You might want to check with some local samples. I've worked (Tulip) Poplar, and it certainly seems heavier than basswood. It also has a habit of failing all the way through a section at once, unlike oak or ash that will start to crack and be partly interleaved. It does not bend well, so I would hesitate to use it in a gunwale anywhere.

I've done laminated seat frames with cedar as the filler, and was quite satisfied with the results.
 
I would go red cedar and ash my self, like some thing like that, ash, rc, rc, ash. That would be plenty strong for a seat and light weight!
 
How the seats are constructed is the real issue !
There was a post, awhile back that showed a sliding seat fail. It looked cool, but the way it was constructed, it failed.

Jim
 
I am in the throws of planning my next build. I don't want to compromise the hull strength, so I will be concentrating on optimizing the trim.

On my first boat I used a cherry uniwale, which turned out to be tough and looked good. I didn't take the same care with the design of the rest of the trim and although the boat isn't heavy, I know I can do better without too much trouble.

Like you Wingnut, i have been contemplating using a carbon wrapped uniwale ... but since I don't have any experience with using the materials this way, I need to do some "playing" around to get comfortable with actually committing to a design and choosing the best materials for me.

I just picked up my order of carbon sleeve and glass sleeve from Soller. For the gunnels, I am going to use the cherry uniwales as the base for comparison ( I know that works and I have to compare to something)... then I will make up 4' sections of cedar and foam, with carbon and glass sleeves (separate pieces for each type) and compare the performance of each and get some real world numbers on the materials and how I intend to use them. I will then use that data when I design the gunnels/thwarts/yoke/seat, and hopefully save some trim weight, without sacrificing strength.

I think the black carbon fiber trim would look good on a cedar boat, but after doing a lot of reading, apparently glass may be as good or better .... testing will hopefully give me enough info to make the best compromise (it also seems whatever you pick is a compromise of parameters, the art is balancing those properties).

Brian
 
Have you seen the testing I did on this a couple years ago? I started by testing the breaking strength of 1/4" strips of wood in multiple species both plain and laminated with fiberglass. Then I started tested 5/8" and 3/4" thick pieces of wood plain and with fiberglass. Finally I laminated a couple pieces with carbon. The pieces laminated with fiberglass couldn't touch the ones done with carbon. Cedar laminated with fiberglass wasn't enough to equal the strength of hardwoods like oak but wrapping cedar in carbon beat the hardwoods.

The results started on page 10 of this build and continued for the next couple pages: http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...ssions/diy/25183-solo-expedition-build/page10

Alan
 
I am in the throws of planning my next build. I don't want to compromise the hull strength, so I will be concentrating on optimizing the trim.

There are plenty of places to cut weight on the hull without, in my opinion, jeopardizing the strength. It starts with being realistic about how the boat will be used and what kind of water you'll be paddling. For lake based trips you can get by with more than if running fast rivers. Use thinner strips above the waterline. Same for fiberglass. 1 1/2 layers of 4oz glass seems to work well or just a single layer if the boat won't see heavy use. Stems seem to take most of the abuse so concentrate more layers there. No fill coats on the inside.

Even below the waterline I think 1/4" strips are overkill for most applications, especially solo boats. I've used 1/4" below the waterline a couple times but more often than not it's 3/16" or even 5/32" for the entire hull. Something as simple as going from 1/4" to 3/16" strips is a 25% weight savings on the bare hull weight; a few easy pounds.

Alan
 
Thanks for the heads up on the test results. Do you have any experience using carbon sleeves? I'm curious how far the sleeve can be shrunk down by stretching or for that matter how well they could form to an Irregular shape like a thwart with a nub in the middle. Seems like a good way to make thwarts, seat frames or any other part. The uniwale I had in mind would probably have to be wrapped with a strip. It might work better for me to glue the carbon inside the groove using a thin strip of wood wrapped with shipping tape to hold it in place till the epoxy set up then fit the uniwale to the boat, coating the carbon with resin after its installed.
 
Thanks Alan, I have to take a indepth look at that thread, at the least it will save me a lot of effort, at best i may not need to do further testing ..


Brian
 
Do you have any experience using carbon sleeves? I'm curious how far the sleeve can be shrunk down by stretching or for that matter how well they could form to an Irregular shape like a thwart with a nub in the middle. Seems like a good way to make thwarts, seat frames or any other part.

Yeah, they work great for that sort of thing. No problem getting them to conform to curvy surfaces like thwarts. Very easy to stretch tight. I've made quite a few thwarts of various shapes with it. Neat stuff to work with. Just stick with the size guidelines given by Soller. The sleeve should be placed when dry and then wet-out. It's very hard to slide it over the part when everything is sticky with resin.

The uniwale I had in mind would probably have to be wrapped with a strip. It might work better for me to glue the carbon inside the groove using a thin strip of wood wrapped with shipping tape to hold it in place till the epoxy set up then fit the uniwale to the boat, coating the carbon with resin after its installed.

I agree that if you're doing a uniwale you'll want to cover it with narrow tape rather than a sleeve. Be sure you get bias woven tape. Regular woven fiberglass tape might conform but don't bet on it. I can about guarantee you'd have problems with regular woven carbon tape.

I've never bothered putting cloth inside the dado. Just fill the slot with thickened epoxy (put the epoxy in a zip-lock, nip off a corner, and squeeze it out like a piping bag) and push it onto the hull. As you clean up the squeeze out fillet the corners so the cloth can conform. The uniwale usually stays in place quite well without much clamping.

Alan
 
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Keep in mind the bias woven carbon tape from Soller (I used 4") is 13.9 oz/yd^2 and is 0.029 inch thick.
There are lighter weight bias woven glass tapes that you can buy, I was just looking for them a few days ago. There's one around 9 oz? and 0.011 inch thick.

Oh yeah, and bias woven is an absolute must, straight weave will not conform.
 
I've used unidirectional sleeve before. I don't think it's something you want to use without vacuum bagging or using some sort of heat shrink tape to compress it. I didn't enjoy working with it nor was I happy with the results when trying to make carbon tubing. I don't think it would conform (hold) to the gunwale shape as well either.

Alan
 
Hi Alan,

I had planned on doing the uniwale with sleeve, then once that is setup, just cutting the dado for installation on the boat ...

"I agree that if you're doing a uniwale you'll want to cover it with narrow tape rather than a sleeve. Be sure you get bias woven tape. Regular woven fiberglass tape might conform but don't bet on it. I can about guarantee you'd have problems with regular woven carbon tape."

Is there a reason you are recommending the tape over the sleeve? I was planning on the sleeve/shrink tube from Soller, providing the numbers looked OK.

Brian
 
Hi Alan,

I had planned on doing the uniwale with sleeve, then once that is setup, just cutting the dado for installation on the boat ...

Is there a reason you are recommending the tape over the sleeve? I was planning on the sleeve/shrink tube from Soller, providing the numbers looked OK.

Brian

I've always worried that once the carbon was applied the uniwale would be too stiff to bend onto the hull. I've never had one happily fit into place even without the carbon. I also worried about applying that much stress to the cured carbon upon installation, wondering how much that might weaken it.

I've used sleeves for separate inner and outer gunwales but made a rig so I could clamp them to the shape of the sheer profile while the resin hardened. I was surprised how much flexibility remained after it had setup for two days but I still worry about fitting a carbon covered uniwale. For separate inners and outers I'd be pretty comfortable applying them to the hull after covering with carbon but they're much easier to fit than a uniwale. I guess if your sheer profile allows it to easily fit into place before laminating with carbon you might be ok.

If I remember right the shrink sleeve from Soller is even more expensive than the carbon sleeve. I've used it for smaller projects and it really worked nice and left a smooth finish but I'm leery of using it on something so long. Obviously you can't put it into place until the fabric is wetout and, especially if the heat shrink tubing is a little on the smaller side, it can be difficult to slide it onto a project that's 3-4' long (let alone 16') without messing up the cloth. For those reasons (hassle and expense) I've never tried it on gunwales. But if I ever did I think the way to do it would be to slide on a 3-4' long section (I can't remember how long they're available in), shrink it, let it cool a bit, slide the next section on, repeat. This keeps you from trying to slide the unshrunk tubing over 9' of goopy sticky gunwale.

I have tried heat shrink tape from Dunstone thinking it would be the answer: http://www.shrinktape.com/

It's a hassle too and I abandoned it. You can use a heat gun but it's made to go in an oven for a steady and consistent heat/shrink. I got some nice results from small samples but too often I get it too hot and wrinkle the tape or uneven heat causes wrinkles. It's better on shapes with constant curves but struggles with the flat edges found on gunwales. It can't apply much pressure to a flat surface. It's also difficult and tedious to apply to long gunwales.

Of all the things I've tried (including vacuum bagging and (failed) infusing) I think the simplest, cheapest, and easiest is probably the best. Glue it on, wrap it with bias woven cloth (which overlaps the hull and helps tie things together), and then do fill coats and sand to get a nice finish. All the other methods I've tried trying to get a nice finish at wetout have resulted as just as much, and usually more, time and work in the end.

Alan
 
If I try this, the basic plan was :
-make a standout from the sheer (small piece of 1/2" x 1/2" )
-measure a fixed distance (say 2") from the canoe, drill a 1/8" hole
-apply sleeve/resin/sleeve to gunnel
- push a finish nail through the sleeve and carbon into the cedar at regular intervals, using a jig
- slip the nails into the standoff holes
-let stand till set

The idea is to move the gunnel shape close to the final, to avoid stressing as you point out. The final step would be to use a router setup to dado out the mounting channel.

Obviously I have to work out several details, but the general plan is the base from which those details get planned. The point you make about the sleeve being a bit of an issue to get on and that a longer piece will be problematic is something I have to look at, maybe install one section, shrink and then slide the next one one may work.

I am a ways from starting, but I always like to muddle things like this for a while before I get to the point of actually trying.

Brian
 
A router might work for the dado. One thing that kept me from trying to preform a uniwale wrapped in carbon was how to cut that dado once it was cured and in a bent shape.

Here is the system I used to prebend my separate in/outwales: http://www.canoetripping.net/forums...ons/diy/38693-composite-bloodvein-build/page5

You'll see that I gave up on that plan after doing the first one figuring it would be less work to just attach them to the hull during wetout rather than continuing with the heat shrink tape.

It's a fun problem to think about. Good luck.

Alan
 
Thanks Alan, that is a lot of really useful information ... glad it's all posted cause now I can go and review whenever I get a brainstorm. I already have a few ideas of changes I have to make in my intended process.

Once I get all these darn paddles done and my new tarp sewn, I can start looking at getting the build started.

Brian
 
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