​Cheat Sheet of Used Canoes for solo downriver CL II daytrips

[Glenn MacGrady]

"I know the rivers he is running. There are long stretches of flats mixed with some CL II, and any solo downriver canoe with some depth and rocker would handle it fine."

Focusing on this quote, the answer is easy: ANY canoe can run such waters, and historically have: birch bark, clinker wood, wood/canvas, aluminum, fiberglass, mixed composites, Royalex and other plastics.

Originally, virtually all these canoes were tandems even if paddled solo. Then came shorter and narrower and hence tippier solos. None of us can speak to how comfortable someone else will feel in the various models of tippier solo canoes.

How well and elegantly the canoe runs the class 2 rapids is a function of the paddler's skill. Any canoe can "get through" them. If the paddler has the skill and interest to do eddy turns, ferries and other upstream work, and otherwise "play" the class 2 rapids, he may prefer one of the turnier models already named. None of us can speak to his skills and interests.

No canoe, even specialized whitewater designs, has to have a saddle. Saddles and pedestals are safety features. (I won't belabor this thread with an account of how I almost drowned by being pinned with my legs under a kneeling thwart on one rock in a class 0 rapid.)

I thought Royalex was one of the parameters, but if not, I almost always advise the lightest canoe reasonably possible for the water conditions and bank account at hand. Anyone with solid intermediate whitewater skills can paddle lightweight composite canoes in the kind of waters described.

Probably the list is as complete as it can be, other than that any tandem canoe paddled solo can handle such waters. Some of those are certainly lighter weight than the Royalex whitewater models and many are probably a lot more available on the used market.

I'm positive I said nothing informative to Mike in this post, but us folks who don't canoe any more have time on our hands.

There is also the Hemlock SRT in composite which would be very good indeed, but you ain't gonna find one for $800.

Oh, I think one could be found for not much more.

 

[pblanc]

Class II whitewater covers a whole lot of ground, all the way from short rapids with a couple of sizable waves that might require some modest maneuvering all the way up to 1/2 mile (or more) of continuous "boogie water" that requires continuous rapid maneuvering through rock gardens and holes that can easily and quickly swamp an open boat. Not knowing just what type of Class II water he wants to run really hampers making an intelligent recommendation.

Also, what is his goal with regards to these rapids? Does he view dealing with them as a necessary evil that must be endured in order to paddle the stretches he wants to run? Or does he actually want to do something in these rapids, other than just get on downstream upright?

I'm not sure what type of Blue Hole he has been paddling, but if it is a big, old OCA virtually any dedicated solo canoe mentioned is going to feel like a sports car in comparison, and as a result, his attitude toward running rapids might well change.

Also, how necessary is it that the canoe be Royalex? Is this because frequent contact with rocks or hard ledges is anticipated? Or is it just because of the commonly held notion that Royalex is "the thing to have" for rivers? There are a whole lot of composite boat designs including downriver racers and full whitewater designs that are built tough enough to withstand the vast majority of Class II water just fine. And in my experience, a well-built composite is often considerably more abrasion resistant than Royalex.

As for seating, back in the day (late 1980s and early 1990s) a lot of Dagger whitewater designs came with the option of a kneeling thwart installed. These included the Caper, the Encore, and the Impusle. The Dagger Caper-T came with three kneeling thwarts installed, so that it could be paddled either tandem or solo. You could buy Blue Hole Sunbursts equipped that way as well. I have a Sunburst I with a kneeling thwart sitting behind the garage as I type this. Most whitewater paddlers have abandoned kneeling thwarts these days because of the potential entrapment hazard, but I have paddled Class III water in boats with kneeling thwarts and would not have much hesitation paddling most Class II water in a boat equipped with one. A few years ago, I paddled the Class III Lower Youghiogheny River with Ed Gertler, me in an open boat and he in his old Hahn C1 and he showed me his outfitting. Sure enough, it had a kneeling thwart. But if your friend wants the option of sitting some of the time, a canted seat makes more sense. Hopefully, his foot size is not such that the seat has to be mounted too high to accommodate his feet.

If your friend is looking for something relatively efficient on the flats that can get him through some relatively straightforward Class II rapids and allow him the option of sitting, I would look around for a composite downriver racing type hull. Downriver racers just want to get through the rapids as quickly and as dryly as possible so the boats are efficient and seaworthy, but don't turn all that well. For a lot of Class II water that is no big deal. I have an old fiberglass Wenonah Jensen WWC1 for which I paid the princely sum of $75. I canted the seat, put in a Wenonah adjustable foot brace and some kneeling pads, and it does pretty well. If he wants something fancier look around for a used Curtis/Colden Dragonfly. Although you might need to look long and hard to find one for $800.

If your friend might want to actually play a little in the rapids and is willing to tolerate a bit less efficiency on the flats, I would look around for one of the old Royalex 4 meter whitewater boats. There is a reason that so many solo whitewater canoes of the late 1980s and the early to mid 1990s were right around 13' and 1-2". This allowed them to compete in whitewater slalom in the Royalex class which had a 4 meter minimum length requirement at that time. A lot of these designs have already been mentioned such as the Dagger Encore, Dagger Genesis, Mohawk XL13, Old Town H2Pro, Wenonah Recon, and Whitesell Descender. Most of these canoes later became regarded as entry level whitewater open boats as paddlers went to ever shorter and more steeply rockered playboats, but they get through the flats a bit more efficiently and all are stable enough to allow a canted seat to be installed for paddling from a seated position (for most decent paddlers).

 

[Guest]

Class II whitewater covers a whole lot of ground, all the way from short rapids with a couple of sizable waves that might require some modest maneuvering all the way up to 1/2 mile (or more) of continuous "boogie water" that requires continuous rapid maneuvering through rock gardens and holes that can easily and quickly swamp an open boat. Not knowing just what type of Class II water he wants to run really hampers making an intelligent recommendation.

Pete, it is always difficult to make canoe recommendations at a distance. I know the sections of river he has been running and the rapids are more of the former, short sections of point and shoot. But, despite his “I also don’t feel like this is a time in my life to go after 3 or 4 (getting old)” he is now talking “Class II+”. Plus he lives in an area with ample whitewater and has at least one WW paddling companion.

Also, what is his goal with regards to these rapids? Does he view dealing with them as a necessary evil that must be endured in order to paddle the stretches he wants to run? Or does he actually want to do something in these rapids, other than just get on downstream upright?

Probably not now, but that is/could be a growth thing, and for that learning curve a more WW oriented canoe would be beneficial.

I'm not sure what type of Blue Hole he has been paddling, but if it is a big, old OCA virtually any dedicated solo canoe mentioned is going to feel like a sports car in comparison, and as a result, his attitude toward running rapids might well change.

He has been using an old Blue Hole hull, the equivalent of an OCA or OCV, originally outfitted by Shenandoah canoe with huge square wood rails and bench seats done in the fashion of an Adirondack chair seat pan. It was not my finest rebuild and it is heavy as heck.

Also, how necessary is it that the canoe be Royalex
There are a whole lot of composite boat designs including downriver racers and full whitewater designs that are built tough enough to withstand the vast majority of Class II water just fine. And in my experience, a well-built composite is often considerably more abrasion resistant than Royalex.

Less than a week ago he was set on RX. I have deduced that the canoe weight is a major factor, and have sent him some weight comparisons of RX vs composite same model canoes.

But if your friend wants the option of sitting some of the time, a canted seat makes more sense. Hopefully, his foot size is not such that the seat has to be mounted too high to accommodate his feet.

Size 8 IIRC. He has done one trip in a borrowed Dagger with a pedestal and enjoyed everything but the seat. I think he is pretty set on no pedestal (and maybe not a kneeling thwart either). That preference alone kinda reduces the potential for play. We have discussed the depth necessary to hang a seat and have room underneath for kneeling.

His missus is not quite on board with him bringing home another boat. It may not have helped that the last time he visited I sent him home with a plastic sea kayak. Of course he has not bought any of the three boats he currently has, so. . . . .

If I knew for certain that his now and future intentions were limited to easy Class II I’d recommend that he buy a suitable downriver canoe and give the ancient Shenandoah Beast to a friend in his area. Especially if the new canoe was something like a Penobscot 16 or etc that he could also stand and pole.

If not, and he wants to progress and play, an old school, now entry level WW canoe may be his answer.

 

[pblanc]

A few years ago, I participated in a downriver race on the Class II-III Nantahala River paddling my Hemlock Shaman. I thought it was just going to be a club race but it also turned out to be the Southeast Regional Championship downriver race for the year so there were quite a few boats. I was third in the solo open boat class.

The winner in the solo open boat class was old Payson Kennedy, co-founder of Nanathala Outdoor Center. He was paddling a Dagger Reflection 16. His "pedestal" was a plastic milk crate duct-taped to the bottom of the hull.

 

[Guest]

Pete, thanks for that list of old school shorties that would be amenable to bench seating. I have catalogs and Buyer’s Guides going back to 1992, so I am having a ball looking up old canoe specs for him.

I did advise him about the enhanced boat control (and safety) of a saddle if he intends to “play” in the rapids, now or in the future.

I hope you don’t mind, but I couldn’t resist sending him these two quotes for special attention:

“I'm not sure what type of Blue Hole he has been paddling, but if it is a big, old OCA virtually any dedicated solo canoe mentioned is going to feel like a sports car in comparison”

“A few years ago, I participated in a downriver race on the Class II-III Nantahala River paddling my Hemlock Shaman. I thought it was just going to be a club race but it also turned out to be the Southeast Regional Championship downriver race for the year so there were quite a few boats. I was third in the solo open boat class.

The winner in the solo open boat class was old Payson Kennedy, co-founder of Nanathala Outdoor Center. He was paddling a Dagger Reflection 16. His "pedestal" was a plastic milk crate duct-taped to the bottom of the hull.”

FWIW I sent him a link to Payson Kennedy
http://www.canoekayak.com/canoe-kayak-awards/payson-kennedy-lifetime-achievement-2016-ck-awards/

My BIL is not Payson Kennedy, and the Reflection is his daughter’s canoe. I trust he is being gentle with it while it is stored at his place. How she came to garnered a wedding gift of tandem canoe, paddles, PFD’s, dry bags and etc; short version, she and her boyfriend (now husband) borrowed a canoe and gear and tripped everywhere we could recommend between the Adirondacks and south Georgia. Still do, with young daughter.

Added to his used WW canoe cheat sheet:

Dagger Encore, 13’ 2”, 50 -56 lbs
Dagger Genesis, 13’ 5”, 56 lbs
Mohawk XL 13, 13’ 3”, 56 lbs (the XL 14 is 14’ 3” and 60 lbs, the XL15 another foot and 65 lbs)
Old Town H2Pro, 13’ 7, 56 lbs
Wenonah Recon, 13’, 57 lbs
Whitesell Descender, 13-ish feet, ? lbs.

I assume those are un-outfitted weights, so adding saddle, D-rings, float bags & lacing, minicel, etc could easily be another 10 lbs depending on the saddle.

How much does a Perception saddle weigh? Or even better, a Bob Foote Grand Canyon saddle? I had one of those Kegel-exercisers years ago; another give away that I soon gave away. (I know, minicel pedestal)

https://www.google.com/search?q=Bob...&ei=NlXBWf3BBpm2jwTy-Ypw#imgrc=yw7xziSxnsKBsM:

Yea Haa, ride ‘em groin muscles!

In that outfitted hull weight lies my bias issue with a Royalex WW solo canoe; 56 - 66 lbs for a 13 foot canoe (and nowhere to install a yoke). It would have to be a dedicated WW “play” boat.

I did advise him to tell the missus that he has not spent a dime of the three boats they currently have, and that if he doesn’t buy a used canoe Mike swears that he’s gonna get him interested in playing golf.

New driver, $400. . . . .links fees. . . . ugly plaid pants. . . . .talks about golf incessantly. . . .new putter. . . . hmmm, a used canoe sounds better all the time.

 

[Guest]

Next steps. I asked my B-in-law to weigh the ancient Blue Hole/Shenandoah. He did.

76 lbs. Houston we have a problem. I may have 3-seated it as a solo/tandem/family canoe; I do not remember, but likely so given the young family history time frame of its giftage.

I do remember that it has g’awful kevlar skid plates, vinyl/aluminum insert gunwales, unskilled epoxy repairs and 5 cans of cheap spray paint on it (three cans pale yellow, two cans purple, with vinyl pin striping between). Plus the hull was old Blue Hole typical massively thick RX, even midships at the sheerline. His scale may read low.

It’s a beast, which helps explain why it is 30 years old and still ticking. And also why I gave it away.

I again reminded him of this (thanks Pete):

I'm not sure what type of Blue Hole he has been paddling, but if it is a big, old OCA virtually any dedicated solo canoe mentioned is going to feel like a sports car in comparison, and as a result, his attitude toward running rapids might well change.

Allowing my bias to fully surface, the dilemma, to my mind, lies with the type of canoe and use he is describing; it falls a weird niche area between a “Get through the Class II upright and dry” downriver canoe and a “Woo hoo, let’s play in the Class III” WW boat.

But (to my bias mind) it would still essentially be a canoe dedicated to mild whitewater fun, not a replacement canoe for the more gentle downriver paddling (or poling) that he does most often in the obese beast of a Blue Hole.

With WW urges satisfied he still would need a replacement canoe for those more frequent purposes. One that doesn’t weigh 76 lbs.

While I was quoting the not-rich and famous I sent him this bit wisdom, source unknown:

“Buy the canoe most suitable to what you plan to paddle 90% of the time”.
Mike’s addendum: “Or even 70% of the time”

And this bit wisdom, from CEW:
“If your back is getting stronger, buy plastic; if not, buy composite”
I wish I had paid more attention to that advice 15 years ago.

Next next steps; BIL plans to borrow a (? Model, I have asked) Dagger with saddle again from a friend for another test paddle evaluation. He writes “On the lake, as the rivers are low”. I offered several suggestions to that plan:

Pick a nice windy day on the lake m’brotha.

Put the missus in the little sea kayak I gave you and race her point to point. Loser buys the winner a new LED flashlight. (His wife is a flashlight fanatic).

Don’t just borrow a WW canoe and paddle it on the lake. Bring your friend along and put them in the Blue Hole Beast for a section of CL II river. See how they like them apples.

If possible borrow a downriver solo and test the too-true veracity of Pete’s “Sports Car” analogy.

Results to follow, hopefully including his wife’s new LED flashlight choice.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

How much does a Perception saddle weigh? Or even better, a Bob Foote Grand Canyon saddle?

I don't know about the Perception, but I think the Bob Foote saddle that came with my Outrage must weigh about 15 lbs.

So, about those pedestals.......the Foote pedestal isn't very comfortable on my boney butt, although it has some handy features. And as I mentioned, it is quite heavy. My friend John made his own mini-cell pedestal for his Prodigy, and it is very comfy and weighs a small fraction. Someone who has only tried one pedestal (the Foote, especially) might not know just how good one can feel.

 

[pblanc]

I have both a Perception rotomolded saddle and a Bob Foote rotomolded Grand Canyon saddle sitting around. I might try to weigh them later today. My guess is the weight is about the same for both.

Someone in Salt Lake City was interested in buying my Bob Foote saddle. I looked into shipping costs for the smallest box I could build for it and found, because of its length and girth dimensions, it would cost about $75 to ship, and that was several years back. The Foote saddle was designed to be removable and required five vinyl patches to be bonded to the hull bottom that received 1 inch nylon straps that went through molded slots in the saddle to hold it in place on the bottom of the boat. Additional D ring patches were required for the outboard thigh strap anchor points. The system worked tolerably well but there was always a bit of wiggle and the straps loosened a bit and needed to be retightened several times during each day trip. On one memorable trip, I took my Dagger Prophet with Bob Foote saddle to east Tennessee to paddle the Tellico River, and when I got there I found that three of the five hull bottom patches had come loose. The other two gave way in the first or second rapid and I found myself sitting on a saddle that was no longer attached to the boat. I tried to put in a hard low brace at Class III Bounce off Boulder and the saddle and I both came out of the boat in a big hole.



The Perception saddle mounted using two thwarts securing the top of the saddle and required a block of foam to mount it atop. The thickness of the foam block depended on the depth of the canoe. If correctly done, the saddle did not need to be attached permanently to the foam block. It was a pretty solid mount, but it would not have been very easy to remove if a removable pedestal was desired.



Of the two, I found the Bob Foote saddle the better choice. The seating surface could be widened by bonding thin slabs of minicell foam to the vertical sides of the saddle body with contact cement. The wings on the front of the saddle provided good separation for the thighs and something to brace them against.



The Perception saddle was very easy to use once mounted. It was really a precursor to the minicell foam bulkhead pedestals that many whitewater open boaters use these days. You didn't need any straps as you could brace your thighs beneath the wings of the saddle. The problems with it was that unless you were small, the wings required the knees to be too close together. And you couldn't adjust or contour the wings to fit different sizes of legs. Both saddles provided "dry storage" that wasn't entirely dry. If you weren't careful, small items could get wedged into crevices inside the saddle making them difficult to retrieve.

These days I would not recommend either saddle. They are just too heavy and do not allow enough customization. I have two canoes for which I have made removable minicell pedestals that mount to vinyl "daisy chain" attachment points bonded to the hull bottom using synthetic straps that run through holes in the pedestal:

 

[Guest]

I have both a Perception rotomolded saddle and a Bob Foote rotomolded Grand Canyon saddle sitting around. I might try to weigh them later today. My guess is the weight is about the same for both.

I have had a couple of Perception saddles and one Grand Canyon saddle in the shop, but never at the same time, and never thought to weigh them, so I’ll be curious.

It seemed to me that the plastic on the Grand Canyon was thicker. I’m gonna guess that the Bob Foote saddle is heavier. For funsies comparison sake does anyone have a minicel pedestal they could weigh?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Why would anyone concerned about reducing weight in a touring canoe be considering a Perception or Foote whitewater saddle? Silly.

Just my kind of tangent. So I'll pile on some personal history.

All Whitesell Piranhas were outfitted with Perception saddles. I still have mine. The hatch covers were always hard to twist, especially in cold weather with wet gloves. The sitting seat at the back was really too high for stable sitting. Aside from the weight, I loved my Perception saddles for comfort, safety and adding structural rigidity against pins and wraps. I'd guess it weighs 8-9 pounds. I liked it better than the Foote saddle, which one of my best friends had.

I got my first Perception saddle when I bought a MR Royalex ME from John Berry, it's designer, a year or so after I had bought one of his Millbrook Kevlar ME's. John sold me the rubber ME at his cost because he took pity on how much I had damaged his Kevlar version in my early incompetence. I specified the Perception saddle for the Royalex ME. John was unfamiliar with the saddle and curious about it, so he ordered a second one for his teaching fleet of canoes. I paid John with a rubber check made from sleeping pad foam in a size large enough to be glued onto the Perception saddle's seating surface. John so used it, and for years thereafter I would occasionally run into paddlers who had taken his course and seen my rubber check on their ME saddle. (Of course, I had paid him in real money too.)

I paddled with Bob Foote several times in northern California in the early 80's. He paddled ME and used a foam precursor of his later Grand Canyon saddle. It had the knee wings with holes for two water bottles and a square hole in front of him for his metal ammo case.

The later plastic version was called the Grand Canyon saddle because Bob first achieved national fame when he appeared on the cover of Canoe Magazine, rolling his ME in the Grand Canyon. He wore the same helmet there as he always had in California.

The magazine cover and article resulted in a misimpression that Bob was the first open boater to run the Grand Canyon. He wasn't. Jim Shelander of Georgia was, in 1979 in a Royalex MR Explorer, which was my first real canoe purchase in 1980, based partly on Shelander's stories at Western Mountaineering in San Jose. He was in California by then, too, "seeing god" on the Cherry Creek run.

I had a similar loose saddle experience to Pete Blanc's on the Tellico. I was leading a trip down the Rapid River in Maine in my club's Sunburst II that had been recently outfitted with a Perception saddle. It came completely detached at the base as I was doing a Herculean low brace in the middle of the longest rapid. I fell over my brace and into the water, swimming to Smooth Ledge. It just so happened that Jeff (or Jim) Snyder, one of the co-inventors of squirt boating, was demonstrating mystery moves that afternoon at Smooth Ledge. I'm sure I impressed him.

P.S. on edit: This 2007 video of Smooth Ledge was not, of course, during my swim in 1986. As good as the modern rodeo kayakers are, I'm still more impressed at what the late Sue Burgess would do at Smooth Ledge. Sue, about about 5-4 and very athletic and double jointed, paddled a Blue Hole OCA. She'd side surf Smooth Ledge standing barefoot on the aluminum gunwales of her OCA. Then, still balancing in the hole, she'd lower herself into a headstand on her center foam saddle, which was one of her favorite mid-rapid river tricks.

One of our club's best open canoe tandem teams once outfitted a Royalex ME with three Perception saddles. They quickly gave up on it and gave it to the club.

 

[pblanc]

OK, I weighed some pedestals. These weights should be considered estimates. They were obtained by weighing myself on a digital bathroom scale holding the item(s) and subtracting my weight without the items. The margin of error is probably around .2 lb.

I weighed the Bob Foote Grand Canyon saddle with the attached plastic Perception Keepers foot braces that came with it, but without the dry box or two bicycle canteen water bottles that came with it. The weight includes the five vinyl patches and synthetic straps required to attach the canoe to the hull bottom, plus the pair of contoured thigh straps and the 2 one inch D rings required to secure the outboard ends of the straps. My saddle might be slightly heavier than stock because I did glue some 1" thick slabs of minicell foam to the saddle's sides to increase the width of the seating surface.

Weight of Bob Foote saddle as above: 11.2 lbs

I weighed a Perception saddle along with a pair of plastic Perception Keepers foot braces. Most often, the Perception saddles were set up with aluminum Yakima foot braces, but since I weighed the Foote saddle with the plastic foot brace kit, the comparison seemed fair. Note that this weight does not include the foam block that was needed to block the saddle up on. The saddle footprint measures about 32' long by 6" wide, and the foam block would sometimes need to be as thick as 3" for deep canoes. I have also not included the weight of the foot brace mounting hardware or the hardware required to secure the saddle to the thwarts. Of course, the saddle could be used without foot braces, or with fixed toe blocks, but most often the saddles were set up with the Yakima braces either secured to the saddle itself or the foam block the saddle sat on. My guess is that the foam block and mounting hardware for the foot braces and the saddle itself would add about another pound to the weight below or possibly a little more.

Perception saddle as above: 8.6 lbs

I weighed a simple minicell pedestal without foot braces. This pedestal measures 14" long by 14" high (at the top of the seat back) by 9" wide and has a seating surface 8 1/2" high.

Minicell pedestal without foot braces: 1.4 lbs

A minicell pedestal of very similar dimensions but with a set of attached short Yakima foot braces secured to an additional minicell "outrigger" measuring about 9" wide by 6" long by 4.25" high:

Minicell pedestal with short Yakima foot braces and minicell outrigger: 3.4 lbs

The minicell pedestals do not include the weight of a pair of thigh straps and 4 D rings required to anchor the thigh straps, which the majority of whitewater boaters would probably choose to add. The weight for the Foote saddle did include the weight of the straps and D rings. Some people even used straps with the Perception saddle, although most did not.

Pair of contoured thigh straps and four 1" D rings: 1 lb.

I did not include the weight of foam kneeling pads with any of the above as the weight would be approximately the same for all of the pedestals.

PS. Bob should have kept his head down when rolling, but I guess he never could resist a camera.

 

[Guest]

Why would anyone concerned about reducing weight in a touring canoe be considering a Perception or Foote whitewater saddle? Silly.

I’m not concerned. And I doubt my buying used BIL is either. If he opts for a more crossover downriver canoe I expect it will come with a bench seat. If he goes with a WW canoe it may come with a saddle, and he will either get use to it or remove it.

Any modifications to the canoe will be his choice, and probably done at some point in my shop.

But since we galloped down the saddle road I was curious about the relative weights.

Good information Pete, thanks.

 

[Guest]

I have begun to get the sense that what my BIL really wants is a small, lightweight “entry-level” solo whitewater canoe, even if that means using a saddle. That is an area where my canoe knowledge is sorely lacking, and I am sure I have overlooked a few suitable WW canoes.

What about a Mad River Fantasy: 13 feet long, 30 ½ inches wide at the gunwales, 4 inches of rocker, 45 lbs.

MRC catalog blather: “For smaller paddlers the lighter Fantasy is ideal for Class II – III water” and “Paddlers of all levels will find the Fantasy sheer fun, a delightful little playboat”

I had one in the shop years ago for regunwaling; Chip’s once-red, by then faded to a peculiar pink Fantasy. Chip is a tall lanky fella, and I never got to see him paddling in Barbie-pink Fantasyland.

Back to my BIL’s specs: 5’ 10” tall, 160-ish lbs, athletic, Class II+ downriver daytrips. Thoughts on the MRC Fantasy?

If nothing else I will have assembled a fairly comprehensive list of dedicated solo (or soloizable) downriver day trippers and “entry level” Class II+ solo whitewater canoes, with length, weight and rocker specs.

 

[pblanc]

The Fantasy was a boat that always seemed to be more popular with smaller paddlers. I suspect it would work pretty well for your friend.
Photo borrowed from a friend.

The Fantasy does have the typical MRC shallow V hull cross section and I prefer a shallow arch or hard chine design for whitewater, but with the Fantasy's rocker, the V hull bottom characteristics are not very pronounced. The Fantasy had a bit sharper water entry than many whitewater boats of similar vintage so it might be a little more efficient on the flats.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Oh, wait....

There are dang few Clipper 14' Prospectors in my neck of the woods. If that fellow is also a Steven I had the boat he’s paddling before he bought it.

I almost let that slip by. My friend John, who I mentioned earlier has been eyeing the Clipper 14' Prospector from afar, and thinking he might really like one. But none around here to try, and precious little about it online. What were your impressions of that boat, Mike?

 

[Will Derness]

For what it is worth, I had the opportunity to spend an hour in one on some moving water and found it to be quite a nice canoe. More rockered than the canoe I was using so it spun a little more quickly than my canoe (OT Cascade). Without some good paddle skills I imagine it could be challenging to paddle on a windy, wide body of water . However, on the river I found it to be very nice -- good initial and secondary stability.

Here's the owner in the canoe who got the "Awesome Canoe of the Trip Award" for the way cool spray deck.

 

[Guest]

My friend John, who I mentioned earlier has been eyeing the Clipper 14' Prospector from afar, and thinking he might really like one. But none around here to try, and precious little about it online. What were your impressions of that boat, Mike?

It felt like the biggest “little” canoe I have ever paddled. 14 feet long and 15 inches deep, with 21 inch stems. 29 inches wide, so it wasn’t a slug on the flat. It doesn’t have a ton of rocker, per Clipper 1 ½ inches, but it was still agreeably maneuverable.

A Prospector-ish design is a good boat in its design element, which to my mind equals downriver tripping with a load, and the Clipper Prospector 14 would be a fine dedicated solo canoe choice there.

Unloaded, or on the flats in the wind, not so much. I know the paddler in that photo is on the smaller size, but that’s a lot of freeboard. I’m curious if that was a daytrip or with a gear load.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Swift Prospector 14 will be more accessible to us in the East

 

[Will Derness]

It felt like the biggest “little” canoe I have ever paddled."................I know the paddler in that photo is on the smaller size, but that’s a lot of freeboard. I’m curious if that was a daytrip or with a gear load.

This was a 100+ mile multiday trip so he's carrying a tripping load. And I agree with Mikey, it did feel like a big boat despite it being a small canoe

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Thanks, Mike and Will.

To be truthful, I've been attracted to the idea of a mini Prospector myself. The both of us have speculated that it might be a good class 3 tripper - but the wind issue is a reason to hesitate around here. The real-world question for him is how it would compare with his Genesis and his Mohawk Solo 14. We guess somewhere in between....but maybe an entirely different animal?