Balancing weight and durability

[danielfishercanada]

Hi, I am planning to buy my first canoe. And I'm very torn between a few choices. They are all 16ft swift prospectors

1. Kevlar fusion basalt innegra
2. Carbon fusion granite
3. Kevlar fusion sapphire/ruby/emerald


Let me start off by saying that lightweight is very important to me because of my bad knees and back. At the same time. I want this to be a life long purchase, so I'd like good durability. I'll be paddling in Ontario, like back country algonquin, killerany, doing short portages maybe 10km a day max.

I did go check out the three boats. Lifted them. Carbon is noticeably lighter but not by too much. And I could handle other two with ease. My biggest confusion is how the durability compares between kevlar basalt innegra and carbon fusion. I heard that carbon is stiffer and therefore more susceptible to trauma. I'm beginner to intermediate so I'd be making mistakes..


Im leaning towards basalt for stronger durability. I've included option 3, the default Kevlar fusion, because it seems like the middle ground. Swift says basalt innegra is stronger than the ruby/sapphire ones (option3) but I don't know how true that is.

All that to say, I don't know what to go with. Please help me decide!

 

[Cheeseandbeans]

I purchased a Swift recently and spoke to Bill a couple times. It was my understanding that the new optional epoxy resin will make which ever material you choose significantly more durable. I would give them a call for more info.

Bob

 

[danielfishercanada]

I purchased a Swift recently and spoke to Bill a couple times. It was my understanding that the new optional epoxy resin will make which ever material you choose significantly more durable. I would give them a call for more info.

Bob

Thanks Bob! I learned just now that it is applied during the manufacturing. Seems like a good option but it comes at 600$. Im a little hesitant on spending more money but seems like a solid option

 

[Erica]

Just paraphrasing Davidson and Rugge here but, when you're out in the wilderness those six $100 bills are just paper and they won't even start a fire.

 

[Gamma1214]

Personally, I'm notoriously frugal (one reason I build my own) but, when money must be spent, I've learned that you'll remember the value of a purchase long after the price you paid is forgotten so don't be afraid to buy once, cry once.

Swift has the reputation of being straight up so I'd discuss your needs, budgetary trepidations and the likelihood that you'll beat it up with them and trust their expertise to guide you.

Now... AFTER you beat it up, there are lots of folks here that can (probably) help guide you during repairs and even a few who will encourage you to build (there's less crying, trust me) one of your own.

Whatever you decide, please post your experience and impressions for the benefit of others who might have the same questions in the future.

(oh, and welcome to the forum!)

 

[danielfishercanada]

Personally, I'm notoriously frugal (one reason I build my own) but, when money must be spent, I've learned that you'll remember the value of a purchase long after the price you paid is forgotten so don't be afraid to buy once, cry once.

Swift has the reputation of being straight up so I'd discuss your needs, budgetary trepidations and the likelihood that you'll beat it up with them and trust their expertise to guide you.

Now... AFTER you beat it up, there are lots of folks here that can (probably) help guide you during repairs and even a few who will encourage you to build (there's less crying, trust me) one of your own.

Whatever you decide, please post your experience and impressions for the benefit of others who might have the same questions in the future.

(oh, and welcome to the forum!)

Thank you for the reply! I will report for sure. Going for swift was a decision I made so I cry once. Haha didn't know there were layers into crying..

 

[yknpdlr]

You might give Ben Diller at Savage River a call to discuss various strength and durability options of their layups. Last fall I received a new Blackwater solo canoe in Texreme Lite, promised at and measured at 19 pounds. it is to become my new flatwater and slow river tripping canoe. I have no intention of using it in fast water or being rough with it in any way. I am enjoying my first paddling this spring in it and I love it. Way more stable than a PB Shadow and just as fast, or faster, especially in wind. I also enjoyed working with Bill Swift a couple of years ago for a new carbon fusion Cruiser. with even greater stability for my daughter.

my Blackwater Layup options;




Extra reinforcing options:

 

[ppine]

Wow. Tangled up in the minutiae. I have never had a fancier canoe than regular old kevlar.
All of those layups are superior to everything that has come before. I do not believe there is a perfect canoe or a perfect RV.
That is why I have always had lots of canoes and they come and go.

 

[gumpus]

Just a few comments...

1) I expect that all three lay-ups would work for you

2) Personally I'd avoid the carbon lay-up mostly because I'd expect the kevlar fusion to be more resilient. I've owned 2 kevlar fusion Swifts and I think it's a good all around lay-up plus it's familiar to me. I believe it's the lay-up they use for rental fleets. The red with white bottom is just one of many color combinations they offer.

3) I am not familiar with all of Swifts newer lay-ups. Is there a description of the lay-up with basalt/innegra? I have a Wenonah where they put one layer of basalt/innegra just for looks. When I was considering a Swift Wildfire there was one available with a basalt/innegra interior and the sales rep told me ir was for aesthetics....not durability. If Swift says it adds durability and you're sure you don't mind the extra weight it seems like a fine choice.

4) It could be worth lifting all of them again. I think you'll find that boats feel a little heavier when you get them home compared to the first time when you're all charged up with optimism and lust.

 

[danielfishercanada]

Just a few comments...

1) I expect that all three lay-ups would work for you

2) Personally I'd avoid the carbon lay-up mostly because I'd expect the kevlar fusion to be more resilient. I've owned 2 kevlar fusion Swifts and I think it's a good all around lay-up plus it's familiar to me. I believe it's the lay-up they use for rental fleets. The red with white bottom is just one of many color combinations they offer.

3) I am not familiar with all of Swifts newer lay-ups. Is there a description of the lay-up with basalt/innegra? I have a Wenonah where they put one layer of basalt/innegra just for looks. When I was considering a Swift Wildfire there was one available with a basalt/innegra interior and the sales rep told me ir was for aesthetics....not durability. If Swift says it adds durability and you're sure you don't mind the extra weight it seems like a fine choice.

4) It could be worth lifting all of them again. I think you'll find that boats feel a little heavier when you get them home compared to the first time when you're all charged up with optimism and lust.

Thank you very much. Just what i needed to hear . they do not have any description and i just had to rely on other websites and ai. They say it makes it more resilient due to its material and pattern but who knows... if it's a couple pounds I think it's negligible but only if it had any functional benefits.

Great tip on number 4!

 

[Alan Gage]

I'm not familiar with Swift canoes but my best advice would be to accurately assess how you treat your boats, how you trip, your level of skill, your tolerance of cosmetic damage, and your tolerance for repairs.

If you treat your boats kindly and don't run rocky rivers you can get by with a lighter and probably more fragile layup.

If you can tolerate cosmetic damage and the thought of minor repairs doesn't give you heart palpitations you can probably get by with a lighter and more fragile layup.

If your trips are in well used areas with established landings and maintained portages you can probably get by with a lighter and more fragile layup.

If you run rocky rivers you should probably get something a little more robust.

If you run rocky rivers but have really good skills and judgement you might be able to get by with lighter.

If you'll happily drag your canoe over obstacles or rocks then get something more robust.

If you're tripping in truly remote areas where portages involve bushwhacking and poor landings then something tougher might be in order.

Once interesting piece of advice I heard from a paddler who paddled many more miles than most as a tripper and guide, in very lightweight hulls, was that it was easier to be gentle to a lightweight hull. Meaning that where you might have drug a 60 pound boat over an obstacle you were more likely to carry a 27 pound hull over just because it was so easy.

Alan

 

[gumpus]

Thank you very much. Just what i needed to hear . they do not have any description and i just had to rely on other websites and ai. They say it makes it more resilient due to its material and pattern but who knows... if it's a couple pounds I think it's negligible but only if it had any functional benefits.

Great tip on number 4!

I bought my Wenonah Advantage used and it came with their version of basalt/innegra on a lightweight kevlar boat. The guy I bought it from said it was mainly for looks but might add a little bit of toughness (not sure where he got his info). I just found this reddit thread that says the same thing, although I would assume that they added a layer of basalt/innegra but didn't remove a kevlar layer. It probably does give me a little bit of added peace of mind whether or not it should. In the case of my Advantage I'm fine with the additional 2 pounds or so since I like the looks (plain kevlar Wenonahs look at bit crude to me) and the boat is still only 35 pounds or so.

https://www.reddit.com/r/canoeing/comments/otb5jk/wenonah_ib_ul_vs_kevlar_ul

In your case you might want to ask the Swift folks if it is an added layer of fabric. You might even call their factory. If it's an added layer it can only help durability. I have a second Swift with a gelcoat on the interior and the interior finish and feel is very nice so if the Swift basalt/innegra is on the interior you might consider it just for the aesthetics if you like it.

 

[Cheeseandbeans]

I had similar questions for Bill about what would fit my needs best for tripping. He said their carbon layups have come a long way and the difference in toughness to their Kevlar fusion is negligible. That surprised me. I went with carbon, but I have no intentions running it down rocky rivers or dragging it.

I paddle wood and canvas primarily, but my back issues won’t allow me to portage them any longer. The few pounds savings in weight were the priority for me.

Bob

 

[billconner]

Ive asked the manufacturers these questions and my conclusion is the plain kevlars - kevlar fusion from swift - is less brittle than layups with carbon or integral. Yes it can be punctured perhaps a little more easily but it will flex.

You want bullet proof, t-formax. If you want light weight and do not mind scratches that show, just carry some duct tape in the very unlikely event it's punctured.

 

[Cruiser]

Concur with Allan, depends how you treat your boats. If you respect for them, all the layups will be fine.

That reduces your selection parameters more to balancing weight and cost ... that new exterior coat looks pretty good though

Brian

 

[M Clemens]

There was a similar discussion regarding relative strengths of composite layups over on the MYCCR forum a couple of weeks ago. Included was a You-tube video from across the pond. Though not a canoe-specific application, some of the scientific impact testing was quite interesting, if one has the time. Reinforced my personal faith in Kevlar.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Hi, I am planning to buy my first canoe.

Daniel, welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos, and to start threads, in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, because canoeing is a geographic sport, please add your location to the Account Details page in your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar as a clickable map link. Many of the site's technical features are explained in Features: Help and How-To Running Thread. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.

Let me start off by saying that lightweight is very important to me because of my bad knees and back. At the same time. I want this to be a life long purchase

You don't say how old you are but you already have bad knees and back. You are unlikely to get any stronger or sprier as the "life long" decades roll on. I started serious canoeing and canoe buying 45 years ago, still have about 15 canoes, but now, at age 80, can only lift about three of them onto my van, much less schlepp them for miles of punitive portaging. So, just four months ago, I bought a used, 28 lb. Swift Kewaydin 15 in carbon fusion granite, inside and outside, with a champagne gel coat bottom. Admittedly, that choice was sort of forced on me because it was the only used Swift for sale near me and I got it at a good discount off of a new Swift.

My 5th "Final Canoe": A Swift Carbon Fusion Keewaydin 15, at 80

In 2008, at age 64, I bought my "final canoe" (Hemlock SRT). Then I did it again in 2009 (Bell black-gold Wildfire). And again in 2021 (Nova Craft Aramid Bob Special, given to daughter in Florida). And again in 2022 (Rollin Thurlow reproduction of B.N. Morris wood/canvas). Can I ever stop? No...

www.canoetripping.net

If I had the money for a new Swift, I would still buy the carbon fusion but would try to shave two more pounds off of it by eliminating the bottom gel coat and perhaps some of the wood seats and thwarts. I wouldn't want four pounds more than the 28 pounds because I will continue to age and weaken.

I have always been a proponent of light weight for all canoes other than whitewater canoes and . . . thereafter . . . being very, very careful with my canoes. That means wet footing in and out of the canoe, no dragging, no rocky technical rivers beyond my skill level. Yes, Kevlar and Innegra have a little more puncture "give" than carbon, which is stiffer. However, I have 40 year old composite canoes that have never seen a puncture or hard impact because of my carefulness. If you really bash any of the Swift layups, the difference is not that one will get a gaping hole while another will remain pristine. The difference is that you will have to apply a greater or lesser repair patch, probably using duct tape on all of them in the meantime.

For me, there is no significant difference between all these layups for normal lake and easy river paddling and portaging, and I exponentially value light weight as I've passed age 70. I'd get the lightest model I could afford. That's the carbon fusion "granite" AKA "H weave". (Maybe the Textreme carbon is a few ounces lighter for a huge upcharge). The carbon fusion granite is not simply stiff and inflexible pure carbon, but is instead a very flexible and impact-resistant cofab weave of carbon and Innegra. For extra hull strength at a greedy upcharge, I'd also consider the epoxy resin on the carbon fusion granite layup. For my money, if not someone else's, that layup and resin combination would be the best balance of light weight and strength.

Bill Swift says in this 2024 video that carbon fusion granite is now Swift's fastest selling layup and has almost caught up to the standard Kevlar fusion layup (colored polyester fabric + Kevlar). The video should start where he discusses and demonstrates this layup.

Of course, aesthetics can also be a controlling factor. Some people think expedition Basalt-Innegra weave or carbon fusion carbon-Innegra granite weave are ugly. Some people just love green or whatever. So, aesthetics could trump a few pounds of weight or strength for some people.

By the way, why are you getting tandem? Do you have a paddling partner that you expect to be on all your trips for the rest of your life? Most solo canoes are easier to control and much easier to lift than tandem canoes.