​Which modern materials layup?

[Guest]

Don't all those layups have a foam core with ribs? It's kind of tough to find a manufacturer that doesn't use a foam core. Hemlock, Millbrook, and who else? I'm sure there are others but I'm not aware of them.

I'm not telling you to go with a foam core. I totally get being leery of them and you've gotta do what makes you comfortable. Just trying to figure out if you're dead set against foam core period or if you just want it in a beefier layup for more protection.

Right you are. I thought only the carbon fusion had a foam core, but each Swift layup has foam.

I am perhaps unreasonably leery of foam; aside from some scant anecdotal tales, usually involving untoward abuse, that is based on one actual experience, and that with an ultra-light canoe in inappropriate and unexpected conditions.

Foam cores of some sort seem common in later day composites, especially when combined with the latest and greatest cloth, resin and techniques, so I trust the manufacturers have developed layup schedules and processes to take best advantage.

So no, not dead set against foam, but still leery of the ultra-light layups. I don’t paddle any serious whitewater, but unexpected conditions are, well, unexpected. And again, I know there will be a certain amount of hull dragging across beaver dams and cobble shallows, and the occasional wave swept rocky landing.

Of course I am done with any long or arduous carries, so that trade off for a more robust weight is easier for me to accept.

I do know this. I have bridged my loaded kevlar Monarch between two Spartina hummocks when waves tossed me ashore sideways. Loaded with me still in it. There were some ominous creaky noises and I departed the hull (into waist deep water), with astonishing speed and agility for a fat man.

That might have been a long walk out with a UL canoe.

 

[Alan Gage]

There certainly are a lot of foams out there. Having never used them I have a hard time knowing just what is what. I know the density is is one difference between them, more dense foam being heavier and stronger. It appears most of them are scored and scrimmed like you show to allow them to better conform to hull shapes and to also allow resin to flow through the laminate when infusing.

Regular building foam, like the pink and blue stuff used on houses, is around 2lb density. The higher end foams for boat building are up around 5-6 pounds.

Here's a good article I just stumbled upon about foam cores in marine applications.On page 2 he starts talking about the different types.

http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core/index.htm

Boatdesign.net is a great site to search for good information on composite boat building. Just need to keep in mind those guys are building things a lot bigger and more complex than canoes.

Alan

 

[frozentripper]

David Yost and John Winters seem to have different approaches to canoe design, at least from what I've been able to gather in cyberspace and not from any real-world experience ... JW has written about Swift's canoes relative to other brands (but not necessarily DYs canoes), with his thoughts on various design elements and how they affect performance.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/45959057/Swift-Canoes-and-the-Competition-by-John-Winters

One thing that JW did comment on while posting at CCR years ago was that his designs will not please everybody with some saying his designs are the creation of the devil if I remember what it was that he wrote exactly. Maybe sprinkle the hull with holy water first, just in case...

Swift has demo days in the spring when both DY and JW craft should be available to test-paddle to find out what's what, on the water... maybe also at their stores if they happen to have whatever it is that needs testing in stock at the moment.

 

[yellowcanoe]

DY usually has a specific paddler's needs in mind. Ergo he starts from that need and tweaks the lines as needed. He often is at the WPA Solo Canoe Rendezvous as he lives not far and brings his almost twin CEW.. So they can bicker and banter all weekend and hob nob with all canoeists there..
JW has in mind a specific boat attribute he wants. They both turn out fine boats with different starting points.

In NYS you have a good chance of stumbling over DY with his old tropical print Bell shirt at the big sales events like Mountainman.

Ha looking at Swift Facebook page now we have unusual color combos like Purple Rain and Henna! They both are patterns in the gel coat.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Mike, if you're willing to pony up $3000-$4000 for a new build, my best recommendation for you is very strong: get the lightest weight layup available for the hull you want.

Don't be put off by the material or by foam ribs or foam sandwich bottoms. The hull will last you the rest of your life if used with care on low friction waters.

My recommendation for lightest possible weight is based on my experience with aging, and on assumptions about your paddling preferences and paddling venues plus things we've talked about.

In my experience, one's energy, strength and motivation declines much more rapidly from 60-70, your upcoming decade, than from 50-60. After that, the decline steepens further. I don't even want to think about lifting my 60-85 lb. boats anymore, even though I'm still pretty strong for my age. I'll never portage them again. The open canoe I use the most for day paddling -- which is, by far, my most common form of paddling -- is my lightest weight boat, a Bell black/gold Wildfire, which isn't all that light at about 37 pounds.

The assumptions I make about you are these:

1. I don't recall in your collection is a really lightweight canoe that you can just flip on the truck or the wife's car and go for a quick day trip. Not having a lightweight canoe will more and more become a deterrent to doing day trips. By day trips, I mean trips from home, car camping or base camping: in other words, non-hull-full-of-gear trips.

2. You don't need super durability. You are not a whitewater paddler. You are not a remote Canadian wilderness river paddler. In the greater I95 area below the Mason-Dixon line, you are mostly on bays, brown water, black water and other low friction flat waters. On your trips north, you seem to gravitate toward lakes for day tripping and base camping. You are experienced and careful. On all these venues, even the lightest weight layup, with care, should last you the rest of your life. When you are planning to paddle high friction or high impact waters, just use one of your many plastic boats.

3. You don't really need a new canoe for long, gear-heavy trips on places like big Western rivers. You have many such canoes. You don't really need light weight on those big waters either. Indeed, I don't think multi-day, multi-portaging trips are your favorite cup of joe. Your existing fleet can handle no-portage long trips. So, I think you should focus on your real usage need for a new boat, which takes me back to point #1: What I think you need is a new quick tripping canoe, not a new long tripping canoe.

4. You will probably favor a stable solo canoe in the 15.5'-16'5' range with at least a 34" beam. That's a large solo hull, which again argues for the lightest weight layup possible.

5. You will double blade it from a sitting position; hence, you can sit closer to the bottom than the stock central seat for a 16' canoe. If my assumption is correct that this canoe will be primarily be used more as a day cruiser than a long tripper, then you can choose a hull that has less depth and less initial stability than you would otherwise choose for a long tripping hull -- and hence less material and less weight.

6. You will inevitably add weight with a bunch of McDIY modifications. That again argues for keeping the base composite hull as light as possible. (Pay to have your utility thwart made of carbon over foam, unless you can make one yourself that won't uglify your new trophy hull.)

7. You are very used to carrying multiple hulls on a vehicle. Pare this down to two boats. The new light boat will be the day tripper, quick tripper, and long tripper when on low friction flat water. You can even rig it with a lightweight sail. One of your existing heavy hulls will be your durable long tripper or beater boat for high friction waters, perhaps with heavier weight and more sophisticated sail gizmos.

I researched these canoes for you a while back. If I were you, I'd probably be looking at the two lightest weight hulls made for the Savage River Deep Creek Solo and the Swift Keewaydin 16. That is, if you want to pony up ~$3500. Which I think you should, if you can. Canoeing is a huge part of your life investment, none of us knows how much life is left to us, and you can't take it with you.

 

[Guest]

David Yost and John Winters seem to have different approaches to canoe design, at least from what I've been able to gather in cyberspace and not from any real-world experience

One thing that JW did comment on while posting at CCR years ago was that his designs will not please everybody

Different strokes for different folks.

I have never met Winters, and while I appreciate his mathematical approach to designing a canoe those are by and large are not the shapes for me.

Maybe just my impression, and I mean this in the best way possible, but Yost designs seem more designed from the eye and heart, and more evolving.

After years of canoes designed seemingly by and for flyweight sized light packers I am at least pleased to see more canoe designs us for big boys, or as we are known, average sized Americans.

DY usually has a specific paddler's needs in mind. He often is at the WPA Solo Canoe Rendezvous

I very much enjoyed Yost, CEW, Curtis, Swift and etc during the heyday of the Raystown Rendezvous. That was a (series of) unique experiences, and the near complete lack of organization was always compelling for the interesting possibilities.

Do what you want when you want with who you want. Lake excursions near and far. River trip with polers. Protected cove (or not) test paddling as many boats as you can get your arse in. If a canoe was left on the beach it is probably available for test paddling.

I think I once counted 70+ canoes lined up on the beach and another couple dozen still on trailers or out and about. New canoes and weird discontinued stuff you rarely see, old Sawyers, Vermont MRC’s, odd Blackhawks and Krugers. Something like 100K in boats on or near the beach.

Not just the boats. Big Labowski movie nights. Truck loads of firewood. CEW’s blender, Yost’s camper and Bill Swift night paddling in the war canoe. The hot-box Topher Pavillion. Penn State game RV campers throwing caution to the wind and joining in around the potluck and campfire sit and sip. Those were some of the best campfire circles ever.

Ha looking at Swift Facebook page now we have unusual color combos like Purple Rain and Henna! They both are patterns in the gel coat.

I should have figured Facebook would be an easy way for manufacturers to put out information. I’ll never catch up to the times. By intention.

Purple Rain? I don’t think I want a leader, but can’t make up my mind, better close it and guide me from the age faded to Barney pink. Prince.

Now if the Henna was done in a nice Paisley pattern, forming a moon and star against a background of stylized birds, butterflies and flowers I could make my peace with the cultural theft, although I think ceremonies involving canoe marriage are illegal in parts of the south.

As a non-Facebookenian I can only let my imagination run.

 

[Guest]

Yes, I remember speaking to DY about several designs about which he recalled designing them for a certain persons needs. My osprey isn't as pretty as some boats, but it performs great---just different from DY's designs. Mine is an old heavy (47#)Expedition Kevlar ex rental boat. If it weighed less I would probably use it more.
Turtle
Those colors sound like kayak colors!! yikes

 

[Nodrama43]

No Title

This is a new for 2017 color from Swift.

 

[Guest]

Cogent analysis as usual Glenn, and helps me honestly assess my needs vs dreamy desires

Mike, if you're willing to pony up $3000-$4000 for a new build, my best recommendation for you is very
In all honesty, I am unlikely to drop 3K on a new canoe. I am still able to haul my heavy RX canoes from the truck to the water and back. My Scot’s preference remains to find an adaptable composite, probably a beater to repair, rebuild and possibly soloize.

In my experience, one's energy, strength and motivation declines much more rapidly from 60-70, your upcoming decade, than from 50-60. After that, the decline steepens further. The open canoe I use the most for day paddling -- which is, by far, my most common form of paddling -- is my lightest weight boat, a Bell black/gold Wildfire, which isn't all that light at about 37 pounds.

Post 60 I have come to recognize that as true, and I appreciate the lightness of hull weight being a concern now and in the future. Although my aging preference is still for multi-day lazy tripping with a comfort load of gear I know that even a 40-45 lb tripping hull would get used more often.
strong: get the lightest weight layup available for the hull you want.

The assumptions I make about you are these

Pretty much spot on. Clarification commentary enumerated:


1.We have an agreeable selection of to-me lighter weight day tripper solos to flip easily onto the roof racks. Mohawk Odyssey 14, MRC Freedom Solo 14 ½, Wenonah Wilderness, Vermont Independence or even a soloized UL Malecite. While none of them fit my sweet spot as a longer trip solo I do sometime carry one as a day use canoe.

2. I am careful. Despite that I have damaged a couple canoes, usually in venue I presumed more benign than experienced. Any composite should last me the rest of my life. I do know how to fix them, I just don’t want to have to with a new 3K boat.

3. I kinda disagree about big western rivers. While I do have suitable minimal-portage down-river canoes, when camping on ledge sites the choice is sometimes to man haul the canoe up a sheer face or leave it tied off and floating in the level-changing river. I am uncomfortable with the latter choice and it is a lot easier to haul a 40lb hull to up a sheer bank to sure safety than a 65 lb RX tank.

4. Yes, those dimensions, more towards the16'5' x 34" are in my ballpark, at least for a tripping sized hull. At those preferred dimensions +/- the weight becomes how a low can you go limbo. I remain leery of too light.


5. I will mostly double blade on a lowered seat; either factory lowered or something DIY’ed, the latter more easily customizable with aluminum gunwales. My cheap used beater desire to rebuild a day paddling composite aside, if I were dropping 3K on a modern lightweight canoe I would expect to use the bejusus out of it for most tripping as well. If I can pluck 40 lbs off the roof and haul it up into camp safety that selection would make muscle strain sense.

6. I would undoubtedly add some outfitting weight. A lot of that is minicel, bungee, pad eyes, webbing loops under machine screwed thwarts and strategic D-rings. The heaviest bits are a broad sail-base utility thwart, an extra “trapper” thwart and snap rivets for a spray cover. That stuff totaled an extra 3 lbs last rebuild, including skid plates and some cloth and epoxy repairs. A custom carbon utility thwart might be asking too much (sounds sleek thought).

7. Yeah, Glenn gets it, and has talked some frugal sense back into me. I really should focus on finding a used/repairable lightweight daytripper/weekender, something easier to heft from the racks for shorted explores, and carry that inexpensive hull to compliment an already outfitted Inspector Gadget tripper hull. Two different use canoes on the tripping truck would be solo travels ideal.

 

[frozentripper]

Mike, I agree that canoe choice is subjective, individuals can argue till they're blue in the face about what's best and still never change anybody's choice when it comes to spending time on the water. JW is interesting since he's tried to be objective about design and the effort shows. He does raise some good questions while admitting that his refinements will not produce canoes suitable for all, and true breakthroughs in canoe design - new canoes that make a really remarkable difference in performance will be few and far between (questions on is there a measurable and significant difference here, will be heard from the eggheads).

He has written in the past not to expect too much from modern-day refinements but paddlers that enjoy paddling might find his canoes increase that enjoyment. Or not, especially if large quantities of beer need to be loaded on... anyway, whatever works. For those that are inclined to whip out their pocket calculators any time and most of the time, here are several more JW links... the last several sentences describe that real breakthroughs in performance may be a delusion, some may choose to believe otherwise.

http://www.northwestcanoe.com/JW%20S...esistance.html


http://www.northwestcanoe.com/JW%20S...esistance.html


http://www.northwestcanoe.com/JW%20S...ingTheory.html



PS.... I have not read the more recent posts here, just piling on more comments.

 

[charlie wilson]

Wow!

The history of lighter boats zigzags along a more or less straight line. Starting with hand laid fiberglass, an all-fabric 16 foot canoe weighed about 60 lbs in the early 70s. Foam cores replacing fabric partials improved weight close to 15% but, at first, not the durability. Foam has improved in strength over the last forty years; it is no longer a pejorative.

Kevlar reduced hull weight by about 15%, with or without foam core.

Infusion has significantly lowered bare hull weight by a similar 15%. It also improves strength by eliminating stress risers like air pockets in the lamination. Infusion raises cost by requiring more mold work and about a $100 worth of discardibles. Wet bagging also even higher discardible costs for less and more variable weight reduction.

Integral rail systems as available from Colden Canoe, Constance Canoe, Swift Canoe and Kayak, offer another 15% weight reduction. That rail system, eliminates fasteners and, the rails being part of the hull, reinforce it wonderfully. Breakage? I've seen one broken integral rail, the boater drove over his tie down strap, jack knifing the hull over the back Yakima Bar. Easy fix with rail sox material. Worrying about breakage is kind like Trump's Wall. Wasting energy on a no longer existent problem.

Further weight reductions are smaller steps, synthetic thwarts, grab bars, portage yokes, decks, seat frames, etc, each helping reduce weight by small amounts. Added together, Swift now has a fifteen foot by 36" wide tandem under 30 lbs. Solos can be had well under thirty pounds, smaller ones under twenty.

Fabrics usage is also a kinky straight line. Tensile and modulus strengths, elongation to breakage, impact resistance and water retention data are all available online, and, as that's how I keep myself in Old Vine Zin...

E Glass costs about $6/ lb, S glass and Innegra about $20, Kevlar about $25 and Carbon $50. Of the four, Kevlar has the most trouble resinating, and be careful. Colored Kevlar 29 should comprise no more than 25% of a fabric due to poor resination. NorthStar, Nova Craft and Souris River, among others, incorporate K29 in their fabric.

Kevlar has had a nice forty year run as the optimal functionality at reasonable cost composite canoe material. That may be over. Notice Kevlar's minimal aero-space use. It doesn't actually resinate, but lays inside resin "Tubes", hence the stress crack "grins"; the resin needs to shatter before Kev's tensile strength is engaged. Moisture retention is also quite problematical as is UV degradation. That said, it's still on a fine forty year run as the go-to fabric for moderately priced recreational laminates.

Flax, used in Alexander the Great's armour, has come and gone. It was beautiful but it had sketchy mechanicals and the look has been approximated by co-mingled Basalt/Innegra. Innegra is a stretchy HDPE/polypro, and olefin with good abrasion characteristics that resinates no better than Kevlar, so should be combined with S glass, Basalt, or Carbon to improve resin adhesion and meld mechanical performance to improve stiffness. [Remember Wenonah's experiment with Barracuda glass outer, 100% Innegra inner?] Innegra combinations can be co-mingling; both materials in one yarn, or in a quad weave, both materials alternating in both warp and woof. Bi weaves are problematical as obstructions happening to line up with the more flexible material can "Zipper cut" the less flexible one. Innegra has a S.G of .91, so must be infused, the vacuum applied prior to resination, to keep the material from floating on the resin.

Spectra, Dyneema is an Ultra High Density Polyethylene with improved mechanicals, unfortunately limited to temps below 120F and with a SG of .95 also floats on resin and needs treatment to resinate; the treatment has a short shelf life. The need to send rolls back for another scuff and spray pretty much precludes UHDPE from boat use because hulls built from the back half of the roll are likely to delaminate. It is used mostly unresinated in armour and resinated for radar domes.

What fabric should optimally go where, and where partials layers/pieces can replace full blankets is proprietary data that keeps me in Old Ghost Zinfandel, but basically look at modern body armour: hard ceramic plates outside, soft, flexible high tensile strength layers inside. Modern vehicle armour seems to use alternating layers of edge controlled, unresinated, Kevlar and Spectra, but they can accommodate fabric treatment and we need to resinate out fabric choices. Very different strokes.

Carbon is available in three densities with differing mechanicals, and standard and intermediate densities are dropping in price. I suspect we'll see Carbon replacing Kevlar as pricing converges. They have similar mechanicals; both ~ 600 ksi tensile, Carbon half again higher in modulus, Kevlar twice the elongation to breakage, and Carbon can be recycled. Al Good, high end composite canoes and kayaks will be black instead of golden.

A new development is fabric geometry. Almost all fabrics have the fill climbing over and under the warp, resulting in a high degrees of kink. That kink must be removed by resin flex or breakage before the fabric's materials tensile strength is engaged to resist deformation, hence tears in FG boats, stress grins in Kevlar hulls.

A new type of fabric uses non spun, spread tow, aligned as thin ribbons that are stabilized with an epoxy mist. Kink is reduced from environs 180dg per half cm to about 15dg. That reduction, the fabric already aligned to engage its tensile strength when laminated allows less material to be used and thereby less resin to stabilize it for another weight reduction. There are several manufacturers, TeXtreme the best known. The stuff is semi-experimental, expensive and hard to work, but lighter and stronger, and obviously the future. It is available in Carbon and co-mingled Carbon/Innegra. Beyond that we're waiting for Magellan Systems M-5.

 

[Guest]

Charlie, as with many of your informative insider posts I cut & paste saved that.

I wish I had done so on some past posts, especially those regarding composite canoe model evolution history through the years and variations.

 

[charlie wilson]

Mike; Is it the DY Solo Tripper things you want?

 

[Muskrat]

Charlie, any word on how that M5 will wet out? Specifically, does it fluff up and require vacuum bagging? Also, I haven't found anything on abrasion resistance. It might take some getting used to blue instead of kevlar yellow.

 

[Cruiser]

Charlie,

"Spectra, Dyneema is an Ultra High Density PolyProp"

I am pretty sure that Dyneema and that family of products is actually UHDPE (PolyEthylene) , so that is just a small correction ...

Brian

 

[charlie wilson]

Right you are Brian; I'm going back through my data, several books and more papers. Innegra has claimed to be a HDPE, and an Olefinic PolyPro, which does not make UHDPE a PP. When I started looking at Innegra they had a SG of .64, then .84 and now .91. Slippery stuff in more than one way, more later..

CEW

 

[charlie wilson]

Innegra Overview

Innegra is a high density polypropylene; an aromatic polyethylene. It has very low specific weight and low tensile strength and modulus mechanicals combined with high elongation to failure. Innegra lowers fabric weight and increases resistance to flexural failure. Compared to Kevlar it is roughly half the weight, hydrophyllic, and bonds better. Fabrics are bulky, or thick, for given weight. Innegra floats on resin, so is best controlled with infusion to compress bulk and minimize resin content.

It is used to sheath thick carbon race car chassis to control traumatic splintering. We've seen it in a Wenonah canoe , in several Nova Craft [H] and Swift [H and quade weasve S] models and on SUP boards. Most Innegra experimentation has focused on thicker ~500 mill laminates while paddlecraft utilize thin, 35-45 mill, three to four layer laminations. Innegra can be placed on the inside or outside of thin laminations, or both, sheathing stiffer materials, or internally as captured layers. Which choices will optimize paddlecraft laminations?

Innegra S is available as woven fabric in various weights/ thicknesses. Innegra H is bi-woven with E glass, with basalt, a natural material with characteristics between E and S glass, or bi-woven with carbon. Innegra H is hybridized with basalt or carbon into bi-spun or co-mingled threads and woven into fabric and comingled with carbon in TeXtreme spread tow material. There is a broad array of hybridized InnegraS and H configurations.

Basalt/Innegra combinations currently price below Kevlar, Innegra/carbon hybrids nearKevlar prices. Innegra/Carbon comes closest to a whitewater worthy laminate but at unacceptably high price; the basalt hybrid most closely approximating acceptable river tripper pricing. The expense of converting to infusion lamination and the cost of attendant discardables further complicates paddlecraft pricing.

Canadian composite manufacturers have several lamination schedules in production for the past few years. We can assume US boat builders are also working with the material for paddlecraft and other items amenable to composite infusion. There should be quite a creative range of laminations available in the next few years. Lamination schedules will coalesce with industry experience and prices will lower over time as volumes increase.

CEW Oct 14, edited Feb15.

 

[pblanc]

I can understand using Innegra to sheath carbon to prevent splintering since it seems to me a propensity for sudden, catastrophic failure is one of the biggest drawbacks to using carbon. But when one combines a material with high tensile strength and a high modulus, like carbon, with a material with much lower tensile strength and modulus, like Innegra, is not all the tensile stress borne by the carbon? In other words, does the Innegra contribute anything other than thickness up until the carbon fractures?

 

[charlie wilson]

With Innegra S probably not, with co-mingled H and combined weave S probably so. I'm waiting on test data from Innegra. Of note, Nova Craft and Swift will both be displaying at Canoecopia in Madison; a good chance to see what a couple infusion builders are doing with the fabric.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I love this thread !
Kinda makes me feel like I'm rolling a square stone up hill ! I'm used to it !

Jim